A Glimpse into the Mind of a Visionary
Posted: July 21st, 2009 | Author: James Downing | Tags: Church, Furtick, Preaching | 49 Comments »Original post: http://www.stevenfurtick.com/uncategorized/sermon-planning-audio-blog/
In this very special audio version of his blog, Pastor Furtick and a few special guests from his creative team have a round table discussion about how the sermon series are planned at Elevation. In an act of selfless bravery, I listened to all thirty minutes of this, so that you don’t have to. You can thank me later.
Here is what we learn about the process from this enlightening discussion:
1.) Steven gets lots of really cool ideas. It may come from watching the Foo Fighters, listening to T.D. Jakes, or talking to his kids, but just know, Steven comes up with tons of really cool ideas.
2.) Steven is really cool.
3.) The ideas for sermon series come from Steven’s imagination.
4.) Steven is unique and relevant.
5.) Sometimes, Steven lets the creative team help him to form his really cool ideas, but sometimes he doesn’t.
6.) Steven is a visionary. (Actually referred to himself in this way.)
7.) After Steven shares his awesomely cool ideas, the creative team does things like “build a brand” and “create a buzz.” Not really sure what those terms mean as they relate to church, but they seem to be getting increasingly popular among the seeker types.
Not a lot was said about Scripture, except a couple of subtle jabs towards Pastors who teach eighty-one week series on the book of Genesis, and things like that. So basically, in thirty minutes, we learned that the ideas for the series come from Steven’s “vision”, and everything else falls in line after that. Oh yeah, and that Steven is really cool.
What I found more interesting was the spreadsheet that they use to help for the series:
Note the placement and wording of question number 7. “What Scriptures do you think you’ll use during this series?” Wait…you mean to tell me we’ve already came up with the concept for this series, with how we want it to make people feel, movie tie-ins, target audience but haven’t decided upon Scripture backing for this series yet? Wow.
Over the last few weeks, we’ve seen multiple times where Furtick and Noble have made great errors in misapplying Scripture, and we’ve wondered how that could keep happening. I think we’ve found our answer. At least in Furtick’s case, he openly admits to dreaming up cool, gimmicky sermon series, and only later tries to come back and tie in Scripture to justify his stance. If you are selective enough, and willing to ignore context, you can make the Bible seem to say anything you want. Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, David Koresh, and Jim Jones all claimed Scriptural backing for their whacked-out beliefs. This is exactly opposite of how a Pastor (or anyone else) should approach Scripture. The Furtick model is to decide what you belief and then try to find some Scripture to back that up. We should always approach the Scripture first, and let God’s Word dictate what we believe.
Similar Posts:
- Despising Discernment; Hugging Heretics
- Relevant Preaching
- Exegesis by opinion poll
- Does this Describe Your Pastor?
- Imparted Wisdom from Impart
My favorite part:
“I would say it starts with ME feeling like I’ve got great ownership of the vision in general for the church…” (emphasis on me).
Doesn’t start with God. Doesn’t start with scripture. It starts with ME. It’s MY vision.
This is an amazing questionnaire. I guess they don’t realize that they should be embarrassed at the order, which seems to designate priorities.
This is a sermon series, but it reads more like a questionnaire from Hollywood about movie ideas. The only item that is missing is: “Which fast food company should we use for promoting it?”
Oh, and thanks for the summary. Now, I know that SF is cool and a visionary. I guess this means he receives visions.
Wow, Albert. You listened to this too? Sorry.
This is also the first time I have heard them so easily substitute the word vision with words like imagination and creativity. I guess in this setting, it is OK to admit that it’s coming from Furtick’s imagination, because after-all this is a back patting session on how cool and creative Steven is. I suppose it’s only when they need real submission that they call it a vision from God. Hmmm.
And yes, Steven recieves visions, though they may be from his son, T.D. Jakes, the Foo Fighters, or God. I hope he designates which source when he relays the vision to his church.
When I read the list I was thinking,”is this some sort of joke from Saturday Night Live? Was this questionnaire made by people who want to make fun of the church?” Then reality hit me hard when the name Steven Furtick settled in my mind, then I knew it was no joke.
And I thought the Scriptures are to be the foundation for our sermons and vision…I guess I was wrong. So much for sola scriptura!
I think this answers my question as to how our friend Brad Cooper can use a foul acronym to describe FUSE and Perry Noble uses his colorful language in his blogs and sermons.
In all seriousness, it’s stuff like this that makes up the foundation of a cult. This is some really bad advice coming from Furtick. This advice may fill a building with thousands of people eager to hear the message of self, but the emphasis is not on what God said or did. Rather than focusing on what God’s Word says in context, this is what the pastor thinks and feels. This is a cult of personality at it finest! Of but wait, to question these visions from Furtick is the question God. My bad!
I don’t mind a pastor coming up with a series before he figures out the exact scripture versus to use. I do that from time to time. Pastors should know their Bible well enough to know what they may use for whatever series they are doing and if their series is Biblical or not. But, I agree, that is way down the list there. That is pretty embarrassing.
I would say you should build your sermons on the foundation of Scripture.
When I attended the THR3E conference, they had that sheet, but they told us it was used for the graphic team. So they could get an understanding of where furtick was coming from so they can do good work on the graphics for the series. And if you read it, it reads like something that is used for a graphic design, motion graphics perspective. And the fact that it is with the creative team reinforces this.
With that said, i have listened to the audio and I have to say it is alittle heavy on the self/me/my side. I know the concept he is talking of and the idea, he just doesn’t present it very well.
Yes, I was curious (famous last words).
MW,
Anytime you place scripture references second to personal desires or, in this case, creativity, you are making scripture what you need it to be at that time, not what it is in and of itself. Downing is right, sermons should be built on whole scripture and in context. Sadly, this chart shows how little emphasis is placed on the authority of scripture and how much authority is given to human preferences and so-called “vision.”
You’ve got to love how the non-negotiables question comes before the Scripture question. One might have thought that they were a result of Scripture, but what do I know?
Seth, perhaps the graphic design team gets ideas from this, but this is clearly something that the pastor uses to flesh out his ideas. It’s also offered here to pastors.
MW, I’m not surprised at your take. The issue is what’s driving the preaching of the Word–the preacher or the Word?
James,
That is a little over the top. You can be exegetical and topical at the same time. If my Church is dealing with a false prophet among them, I might preach a series on false prophecy and use 1 peter to back it up. Legalism, preach on Galations. I’m just saying that there is a time to be topical due to the needs of your church. So pick the topic and then immediately pick the scripture you are going to use, or say “Man, this problem in the church goes directly against (chapter, verse).” Then preach on that. That all I’m saying. You guys become dogmatic about method and that’s not good. I agree that scripture must be at the top. I’m with ya. I’m just saying sometimes you need a topic before you can figure out what verse to use.
Preachers that Just pick random verses in the Bible to preach on don’t often see or care about the needs of their congregation. Using this method isn’t the only or the best way to go. Both ways can be used and they are not unbiblical.
MW, I’m not sure whether I agree with what you are saying 100% or not, still, what you are describing is different from what is laid out in the Furtick blog.
I don’t guess there is a problem with having a topic in mind before the scripture reference is known, but then once the scripture is in place, it has to be the meat of the sermon. What else is there to preach about?
MW,
You wrote: “Preachers that Just pick random verses in the Bible to preach on don’t often see or care about the needs of their congregation.”
Who just picks random verses? Do you know of a pastor who does this?
Although I think picking random verses is a bit odd, I would think that a prepared, informed sermon on any passage would be beneficial to the needs of a congregation. I think a congregation needs to hear from different literary types, different genres, different authors, from different eras, in different testaments, etc. The Bible is very diverse. We shouldn’t hide portions of scripture. We should expound it.
Are you implying that certain parts of the Bible cannot meet the needs of a congregation? More specifically, can you think of a passage that would not be helpful to a congregation?
Finally, you complain about people “being dogmatic about method,” but your post is the one that is the most dogmatic about method.
James,
Agree!
Tommy,
Agree, and yes I do know pastors who have done that. You are right that you can use any passage to encourage but a lot of times pastors that do that preach sermons at the wrong time. I think timing is always good to know.
Nothing wrong with picking a passage and expounding on it. I just don’t like doing that every time.
I’m trying to be the opposite of dogmatic here by saying there are various ways to go about preparing for a sermon. I don’t like the idea of scripture being an afterthought. That is why I’m agreeing with you.
MW,
I just said I wasn’t surprised at your comment. I don’t think that’s over the top, or am I missing something? You can be counted on to jump to the defense of these guys, as you did again here. That’s all.
James Duncan,
“The issue is what’s driving the preaching of the Word–the preacher or the Word?”
Read this wrong… sorry I read it to mean something totally different. That is not over the top. That is right on.
James Duncan,
One more thing. I’m not quick to defend anyone. I’m just quick to keep this place balanced. What you guys don’t understand is that I would side with your conclusions most of the time. I just want to defend the judged because a) some things are worth judging people over (I know I know, you are just discussing issues, but a lot of the stuff on here comes across rude, judgemental and self-righeous. I will defend people against that) and b) it keeps you sharp.
So, If I agree with you, like I somewhat do on this post, then it’s an issue I think is worth discussing and defending against. That’s pretty huge.
*aren’t worth judging over* Typo
MW,
You wrote: “I’m not quick to defend anyone.” This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day. And I’ve read a lot (of comic strips).
Seriously, MW. Your posts typically consist of two main points: 1) you defend NS quickly and decisively (and any of their associates), while also criticizing most commentators on PP. Then on top of that you post comments of a very different nature: 2) you criticize your pastor.
On an even more serious note (because it relates to your wallet): You’d better hope your pastor never reads this blog; and if so, you’d better hope NS does, so they’ll hire you when you need employment. Part of your application could be your posts on PP. They’d automatically know you were BAMF.
You appear to be trying to simultaneously losing your current job to get one at NS.
Tommy,
I’m glad I amuse you, but I have never criticized my pastor. Where do you get that from? I want an example. I would love to see what you think criticizing is. Especially with that large plank in your eye. Mr. Criticize everyone except himself and has God wrapped tightly in his sweet little box with that pretty little bow. I’m glad you’ve figured it all out. Now please tell us oh great one how awesome you are and how everything that is posted on this blog is so great and godly. I love the self-righteousness Tommy. The arrogant scoffing isn’t very becoming of a godly man, you hypocrite.
And you claim I am always quick to defend. What amuses me is how quickly you jump on the bandwagon here on pajamapages. Maybe you agree with everything said on here, but your getting a little brown on your nose. I have very often said that I agree on here but I don’t agree with how things are pointed at a person with no desire to really love and a lot of times without context so that we can get the full scope of the issue. I would still love to see more issues and less names. I like the issues and as I said before, I may more often than not agree with the conclusion. If I defend it’s because of that. My main points are most often “don’t judge a person,” let’s judge the issue. The way to go about doing that is by talking about the issues only without the names. If you name names, then do it with the intention to help, not slander. I am not the only one on this blog who feels like this. I have read multiple comments that say the same thing. People become defensive when you slander. When you deal with issues, people grow a little easier.
I still want an example of how I have criticized my pastor. That is the most ignorant and revealing statement you have made. That statement is case and point of how you never really read my comments. you only read what you want to hear. Just make sure that your example is a good one and with the context. Or else you truly are a slanderer and a liar. Make sure you are right before you ever say anything like that again. I would defend my pastor to the death and I even mention him on here as a father figure to me.
And don’t put that since I don’t always agree with him that I wouldn’t defend him or am criticizing him. I don’t agree with anyone completely but he is a man of very noble character and I love him like a dad.
You better have a good response.
Oh and one more thing Tommy boy,
My pastor reads this blog every day. I’m not fired yet. Which means there is a major problem with the way you read. Maybe you should take some English 101 again. It might help your ability to comprehend.
MW, you’re too laid back. You need more passion!
(Though I’m not sure you entirely refuted his point about seeming to be auditioning for NS. I’m thinking that from Tommy’s perspective, your response was pitch perfect.)
I wasn’t going to respond because that’s like me saying, “I guess you are auditioning for a staff position under James Duncan Tommy.” His Comment was ignorant.
I love how ya’ll judge my passion for unity as an audition for another church. Actually, now that I think about it, that is a compliment. It means my passions are being played out the way they should be. But no, I’m not auditioning. I am happy with and feel called to my church as long as God keeps me in the Anderson area. I love my New Spring Brothers though. They won’t get everything right and that’s ok because they are forgiven by the blood of Christ. They get a lot right and they are doing some incredible things for the gospel of Jesus Christ and reaching people that you guys probably could dream of reaching. People that I can’t reach. I’ll support that. My pastor and my elders know I support that. Unity should be pursued at the expense of anything but God’s truth. As long as someone believes and is preaching and sharing the truth of the gospel I am their brother. I used to beat people up for making fun of my little brother when I was in highschool. I don’t like when people put my family down. So as long as you guys put my family down, I’ll keep defending them as much as I can without compromising the truth.
MW, it’s not so much what you said, but how. You say you don’t like to judge a person, except Tommy, who you name and call a hypocritical, lying, slanderous, brown nosing, self righteous, arrogant scoffer. (I may have missed one.)
I’m sure that helped to put Tommy at ease.
MW,
Thanks for your many recent posts. They make me look like a prophet. I’m confident the NS-ers don’t think very highly of me or my thoughts or ideas. You’re definitely on their side when it comes to Tommy.
Re: your comments about your pastor.
I would like to begin by retracting my word choice. I apologize sincerely for stating that you criticize your pastor. Seriously. Over the past month I’ve read your posts when you reference your pastor (who you also refer to as father figure), and I think to myself: “why is he referring to his own pastor in this highly personal way in a comments section that has nothing to do with his pastor?” This question stems from the fact that the comments do not always commend your church to PP. You at one point spent a pargraph discussing the terrible time your pastor had with critics in your church. Nor do your comments about your pastor seem appropriate, for the discussion at hand. So, again, I say: I apologize for saying that you criticize him. But, I would say (especially after re-reading some of them), that you have not shown much discretion when referring to him. You say he reads the blog. Fine. I am surprised he hasn’t walked down the hall one day and said: “MW, stop bringing me into PP discussions. I like to read it, not be in it.”
In sum, your posts do not technically criticize your pastor (and again, I’m sorry I chose that word), although I’d say they veer very close into the realm of throwing him under the bus.
Re: your quick defense of NS.
I take no part of this comment back. In fact, I should have made it stronger. When you began posting on PP I originally thought you worked there. Seriously. I figured you used your initials as a sign to them that you were defending NS, but didn’t identify yourself to PP readers so we wouldn’t pick apart your twitter feed, blog, etc.
Some of your posts read like you can’t type fast enough to defend BCoop, NS, etc. Sometimes you post multiple comments in a row, because you’re typing so fast that you can’t get all out at once. And re: the t-shirt post. You threw some sharp elbows around and dropped some serious allegations before ultimately deciding that many of the commentators on PP (including me) were right. That is a perfect example of you leaping headlong into a defense of NS when you could’ve worked through it, and then joined in. I haven’t worked up a spreadsheet on your defense of NS, etc., but I suggest you should. Re-read your own posts and see how often you are quick to defend NS. The ratio – I’d bet – is very high.
As a closing comment, I think your ad hominem attack on me was a bit unwarranted, a bit excessive, and totally unhinged. I think you take this blog a bit too seriously. My comments typically contain a heavy dose of sardonic, dry humor. When you don’t pick up on it and then respond, you don’t look very good.
Duncan,
That was a rebuke and wasn’t intended to make him feel better about his false accusations
Tommy,
One more thing, I don’t see humore in your response. Maybe that is something you could help show me because I am taking your responses literally
Tommy,
Thank you very much for saying it that way. My intention is never to throw him under the bus or put him down in any way. By explaining it that way it helps me understand how you take it. I will no longer do that from here on out because I don’t ever want to defame him or my church. So, thank you.
I also agree that I defend NS most of the time, not always but most of the time. The reason I do this is because I see them as part of my spiritual family. I don’t say this a lot on here but I would do things much differently then they do them at New Spring but I will stand up for them because I am friends with Brad and know his heart and know how much he cares about the gospel of Jesus Christ. He prays for me and I pray for him. I want to give him a defense if I can and it is not against the gospel which it hasn’t been so far. I love my brothers there and think that they need to be commemorated more than criticized.
continued
There is a system that I use in ministry that has proven itself to be very useful. It goes like this: When you teach someone you should always demonstrate what you teach. After you have demonstrated you observe the person to see if he/she understands. After they get it and start doing what you teach, you evaluate their ministry and then you encourage them. I have always found that an encouraging mentality always brings about the best results. Its not to say that you don’t critique, but for every critique you give at least two encouragements. “You are doing this and this very well, let me help show you how to do this better.”
If I am defensive it is for these reasons. If you look back though and look at my comment on the “question me you question God” post you will see that I do agree with you guys sometimes. In fact if we just brought up issues without names I may agree more often.
MW,
I have been reading your posts with some interest. I think many would understand (I certainly do) that we defend what we hold dear. You say you have close relationships at NS and that’s great. Your comments do certainly speak to your loyalty to those friends, even to the point of overkill at times. You say you are close to BCoop, and you know his heart for the gospel and you two pray for each other. I am sure his heart is sold out to the gospel. Because you are apparantly close I assume you have his trust and confidence and you can tell him that whenever he uses offensive or slang language to make his points, he is putting his foot in his mouth, nor is he helping the cause of Christ, nor is he living up to the high expectations that most parents should have when it comes to their children’s christian growth. The fact he does this publically and the words are available for all to hear (or read on the internet) compounds the position he (or any other pastor) is in. They live in the public eye and as such, their words are subject to review, reflection and discussion. Just ask President Obama if he wishes he could take his statements back regarding the police situation in Boston.
I know we all put our foot in our mouth sometimes and we need grace and forgiveness being extended to us. We do not need excuses made for us. The best way to deal with a mistake is to own it, admit it for the bad behavior that it is, apologize and move on. As a father of a teenager, I would expect my teenager’s pastor to partner with me in teaching my child the ways of God. Notice I said partner. Teaching my child about Jesus is my job, not the youth pastor’s. And I would want him to help me teach my child without sandbagging me or my child along the way.
MW,
I’d like to second KeithO’s recent post. I’m curious what your reply (or replies) will be.
Also, you wrote: “for every critique you give at least two encouragements.” By my count this is the second time you’ve used this ratio as advice to PP commentators. I presume you want those critical of NS to use this ratio when posting comments. I think this is a fine idea, but I have trouble taking your advice since you so clearly don’t follow it yourself (refer to your 7/23, 11:51 posting and subsequent ones, above).
KeithO,
Very well said. Thanks!!
I don’t know you well enough yet to give those encouragements. As we get to know each other better I will. I always do with people I know. My harsh response earlier was to a false accusation. But I thanked you for your response. I will do better to remember your sardonic humor and give you more of a chance next time. Just be careful with the personal slanders. I haven’t been able to get the comment you made out of my mind from a few weeks ago when you accused me of being 11 years old. There are others and I am getting hung up on them. Just try to refrain from those and let’s hash out issues. It would help me not become so defensive. I appreciate your responses lately though. They have been very fair and well said. Thanks!
Sorry, that last comment was to Tommy
MW,
3 things:
1) I’m surprised you didn’t have a lengthier reply to KeithO.
2) The 11 yr old comment was precisely the kind of thing that is stated tongue-in-cheek. This is what I meant about taking the blog too seriously.
3) And in my opinion, I am always fair. Harsh? Sure. Direct? I try. But fair? That’s always my goal.
MW, if you need to know Tommy before encouraging him, wouldn’t the same standard apply to him? Why do you expect more encouragement from Tommy than you give to him?
Look, this is a place to hash out important ideas. I’d prefer people get right to the meat of the argument rather than fluffing around with personal greetings and encouragement (though there is a place for that at times).
This is a blog, not a home group.
I’ve said this before, but if you want to see how well NewSpring is doing, read Noble’s and Cooper’s blogs.
(In defense of Tommy, he didn’t say he really thought you were 11. The whole point of the post was the immaturity inherent in the T-shirt’s message. You, unprovoked (yours was the first response, remember), jumped right in and said it was great and that you groped your wife all the time. Your response seemed to match the immaturity of the shirt. That’s what Tommy was saying. And, no, we don’t need to rehash the sex and marriage stuff again here.)
Hi all,
I’m new to this blog, and I appreciate what you are doing. There are precious few standing against the tide of delusion these days.
I wanted to weigh in on the Furtick audio. Yes, I listened to the whole thing. Some things you just have to find out for yourself.
It was nauseating enough to hear this man glorify himself and then solicit praises from his team of sycophants. But what I found most outrageous was his scorn for those pastors who merely “preach the word.” This is what preachers are commanded to do!! (2Tim 4:2) Furtick in his smirking sarcasm mocks faithful men of God who would “preach on the book of Romans for a year and a half.”
Then he condescendingly encourages those pastors to continue preaching “dry” scriptural sermons if that is their strength…that is, if they don’t possess the superior gift of being able to come up with cool sermons like he does.
I see in him no evidence of a love for God’s people or God’s Word…I don’t care how many supposed conversions or baptisms he takes credit for.
Oh, and before I am accused of judging, let me freely admit to it. Jesus told me to. His word tells me to judge righteously, search the scriptures, test all things, test the spirits and examine the fruit of a teacher.
This guy is arsenic.
jcarl,
You are correct…but remember that Furtick is cool and relevant!
Jcarl,
Sycophants? They might be the hired cheering section. Perhaps they were just doing their job description.
Duncan,
I’m not looking for encouragment, I’m looking to hash out issues without the personal bashing.
“Just try to refrain from those (personal remarks) and let’s hash out issues. It would help me not become so defensive.” – from my last post.
Wanting to just hash out the issues is what I said. I would much rather talk about the issues only.
Ya’ll also accuse me of getting to serious but all I see on this is serious. You can’t throw blows at each other and at New Spring and not expect people to take it seriously. I wouldn’t walk up to someone at church and punch them in the face and say “oh, don’t take that seriously, I was just joking.” To me, that is more immature than saying groping your wife is ok. It’s also very unwise. You will end up getting punched back. Don’t cry when you do.
Jcarl,
You are correct that you can judge sin as sin and I would agree that putting yourself or your creativity over God or His word is sinful. A lot of stuff that we say “don’t judge” is stuff that is not sinful. It is stuff that is simply unwise. You can’t judge the heart of man, but you can judge his actions if they blatantly go agaist scripture. I don’t know if Furtick would outright say he is doing this and may not be completely, but he is pushing that line hard in saying some of this stuff. To me that is extremely dangerous. I pray that he doesn’t think of himself more highly then God or His word. That would definitely be worth naming names over.
MW,
1) I’m so confused, MW. Please get this straight and then let all of us know which it is: Either you’re here to encourage “for every critique you give at least two encouragements” (7/24) or you’re not: “I’m not looking for encouragment [sic]” (7/26).
2) Practice what you preach.
Tommy,
I assume too much sometimes when I write. This is what I meant:
first, debating isn’t critiquing. I Don’t mind if you don’t agree. That doesn’t bother me, but that was in response to negative slanders and critiques of my ministry (i.e. the 11 year old comment and the “you hang out with your youth too much and they are rubbing off on you” comment.) If you want to critique my maturity, it would be best to offer up a couple good things you see before throwing that in because it is personal. This also makes you get to know the person before you make any personal remarks, negative or positive.
2) I was also saying that to suggest that we post two good things about NS before a critique. If they are reading this then I think it would help them take the critiques easier because they wouldn’t see only negative stuff everytime they got on the blog. If I were at NS I would be very defensive towards people that are only negative about my ministry. I think it will help them listen to you and respect what you have to say more. Only negative all the time is hard to listen to for anyone.
I’m not out looking for encouragment on here, but I’m just asking for encouragement before a personal slam or at least after it. I have friends that have critiqued me harshly before but they encourage me enough to make the negative times easier to recieve.
Aside from all of this I want ya’ll to know that I really like being on this blog. Even though I don’t get to know you completely personally, I appreciate the false sense of fellowship and I would rather talk to someone like ya’ll who are passionate and who may even at times completely disagree with everything I stand for then someone who doesn’t care. Ya’ll are passionate and fun to talk to. I like that and I appreciate ya’ll letting me continue to be a part of the discussions.
MW,
The odd thing here is that you don’t follow your own advice. You want others to practice the “2 positives for every 1 negative” rule, but you give yourself a pass (see your 7/23 post).
Your youth do seem to be rubbing off on you. This can be bad or good. This depends on your perspective. This is not a personal jab, it’s an assessment of your comments. They seem to display a youth mentality. This may make you a great youth minister. I dunno.
It seems to me what you really want is a gush-fest where we heap on praise and adoration to NS, etc, and never offer any criticism. You seem incapable of being neutral. If a negative comment comes in about NS, you rush in to defend. NS is never wrong? Never in need of correction? Wow. That’s quite a church.
I don’t think they don’t need correction. Every church needs correction. I’ve said that before, but the pendulum tends to only swing toward correction on this page, not encouragement. I’m really just trying to make a point.
Check out the blog on “Question me, oppose God.” I’m agreeing on the big issues.
I think part of the communication that is getting lost in my defense of NS is that I’m just trying to point out that some of the issues that people get up in arms about on here sometimes are issues that are not about sin, but maybe wisdom or just a different perspective on how to reach people. In defending them, I’m really trying to defend their right and freedom to reach people the way they feel people are best reached. I am a lot more free minded in approach. I personally, especially knowing my kids, my church and their culture don’t think it would be wise at all for me to run my youth group like NS’s. It would have the opposite effect on my ministry. Plus, I don’t mind being shocking, but I’d rather be shocking with the truth then with a gimmick. If shocking gimmicks bring people to listen, ok, I’m not with it 100% but I won’t criticize because they are reaching people. That isn’t me though. If I offend or shock, I want it to be through the radical truth of the gospel. Does that make sense? I hope that explains my intentions.
I just know the intentions and heart of some of the NS staff and know that they are doing what they are doing to bring people to the gospel of Jesus Christ. They want to transform lives. I think that is awesome. If they are accomplishing that, which I think they are then I’m not going to criticize their methods. Not unless they step over the sin line. Some people on here think that they have at times. I don’t yet. The closest blog post to them getting close to that line is the “Question me, oppose God.” post. I think the semantics are dangerous. I don’t think they mean what we are supposing they mean, but I would be very cautious about saying something the way Furtick says it. I think he steps over that line with his language. His intentions may not be stepping over the line, but his words are.
MW,
Self-glorification (pride) is sin.
Making light of the word of God is sin.
Ridiculing men of God for preaching the Word is sin.
Coarse joking and unwholesome talk is sin.
Failure to heed Godly reproof is sin.
Abusive speech is sin.
Loving the world and the things of the world is sin.
Seeking the approval of the world is sin, especially for a preacher.
Failure of a shepherd to feed the flock is sin.
Lording it over your brothers and sisters is sin.
Teaching false doctrine is sin.
Failure to repent of sin is sin.
These items are not negotiable, and it is not a matter of perspective. Sin is not justifiable even for the purpose of “reaching out” to people. Jesus taught us by his example and words what true reaching out is. It is preaching the gospel and the kingdom of God…repentance toward God and faith in Jesus Christ…teaching people to observe all things that Jesus commanded, etc. God hates sin and does not endorse it, condone it, or need it as a means to draw people to His Son.
I can’t judge a man’s heart as to his motives or the status of his soul before God, but I can judge a man’s doctrine and behavior. Scripture clearly tells me that I can discern a false teacher. And when I do, the Word commands me to turn away from him. Not to look for mitigating factors or make excuses for him, but to turn away.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again. These cats are arsenic.
Furtick’s blog is the funniest satire I’ve ever read.
Jcarl,
Are you saying all of that to agree with me or not? I just said the same thing to you a few comments back. make sure you read the comments before you post. It doesn’t help your argument.
I don’t get why you felt the need to write all that?
I told you, judge sin, not the heart. You just said the same thing. I said before that, the stuff on this blog (not the blog post but blog) that some of us have said “don’t judge them” on, is on the other blog posts which are not dealing with sin, but wisdom. There is no need to judge someone over a method. There is a reason to judge the ACTIONS of someone if they are in sin. I have actually agreed with the commentators of this blog on the last couple of issues.
“Loving the world and the things of the world is sin.
Seeking the approval of the world is sin, especially for a preacher.
Failure of a shepherd to feed the flock is sin.
Lording it over your brothers and sisters is sin.
Teaching false doctrine is sin.
Failure to repent of sin is sin.”
When you got to this point in your comment (assuming you are speaking about NS) you started assuming too much (you only have one example you can use for the last one). You don’t know any of these things for a fact.
But, please, if you are the all knowing God that stares into the hearts and everyday lives of man, please let me know. I will take back my last comment.
I was reading around the site today and it would seem that Furtick’s blog is not meant to be satirical…. some please tell me this isn’t true…