Another ignoble and gratuitous slam at the church
Posted: August 26th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Christian, Church, Noble | 53 Comments »This week, Perry Noble is telling pastors how to avoid an affair, and this morning he’s recommending that they pay more attention to their families. Fair enough, but early on in his piece comes this reference:
Too many pastors … let the expectations and demands of needy, clingy church people (notice I didn’t say Christians) DRIVE them to a place of insanity.
A few questions:
- Isn’t everyone needy?
- Shouldn’t Christians be clingy?
- Does being needy mean you’ve lost your salvation?
- Does going to church (thus becoming a church person) make you lose your salvation?
- Wasn’t the one sheep of the 99 that the shepherd went after somewhat needy?
- Isn’t it a pastor’s job to care for the needy?
- What does Noble have against Christians who go to churches other than his own?
Similar Posts:
- Mega-Church Conundrum
- What’s wrong with Christians?
- A pastor’s lament
- It’s remarkable what passes as teaching in Noble-land
- Perry Noble on Southern Baptists
This is tired.
In regards to #4,
I don’t think that is what PN meant, but it does seem very out of place in this point. Maybe NS needs another enema…
#6,
Perry doesn’t think it’s HIS job. He is in charge of preaching, managing his twitter account and blog, and wearing stylish clothes. That’s it.
Just more of Noble complaining about the job of a true pastor. This CEO “rock star” should simply drop pastor from his name and just run with Perry Noble of NewSpring Church. Clearly he scoffs at the Bible’s requirements to be a pastor and he mocks men who follow these requirements.
1) No
2) No
3) No, that was not mentioned or implied
4) No, see #3
5) No, he was lost
6) No, it’s the churches responsibility, not the sole responsibility of the Pastor.
7) Nothing, see #3
He has blogged about this issue before. I think one of the things he misses is that probably most if not all these pastors who commit adultery should not have been pastors to begin with. Not to make light of teh situation, but I think Ted Haggard and Gary Lamb are two examples. Both sinned greatly, but there were patterns in their life that showed major issues well before they sinned. No one just decides to committ adultery. There are sinful patters, decisions, thoughts, etc. that come will before that action. They should not have been in the office of pastor because of them. Just becasue you feel “lead” to plant a church does not make you qualified to be a pastor. The sin adultery, stealing, etc. are fruits of a character and heart. Mark 7 makes that clear. The Bible has made it crystal clear the job description and requirements for the office of pastor. Sadly, Many pastors in evangelical cirlces don’t want to do the neccessary and required work of a pastor (noble is a good example) let alone have the character qualities neccessary to do it. I’ve said it many times…many evangelical pastors and churches are not true pastors or churches…even if they are growing (because God may be using them despite there ways). Instead, they are CEO’s with a well-fined tuned, efficient machine.
So, another of Perry’s friends got caught in an affair? That’s a shame, seriously. However, in opposition to Perry’s assertion, I don’t think it was too much serving the church that lead to the affairs. See, Perry tries to even blame these affairs on “church people”, though he will never define that term.
No Perry, these guys are sexual predators who use their position of influence to get what they want. While some of what he says in his blog entry is good advice for any married man, it won’t stop an affair. Contrary to popular belief, affairs don’t just happen. They aren’t accidental. These guys are more concerned about having sex than having a ministry. They don’t deserve to be within a mile of a pulpit ever again.
David J Horn
Perry’s job is to teach and preach and lead the church, When I read the biblical outline for an overseer, I do not see anything about helping everyone single person out, that is why you have deacons, or, in the case of NS, a care team. Which is biblical.
Seth, care to give Scriptural reference that excuses a pastor (sheperd) from caring for his flock?
First, When I say that I mean hands on personal care, I consider preaching and teaching spiritual gifts and a way of caring a ministering from the flock, secondly, by creating a care team that helps people, Perry, is, indirectly, helping those people, but in Acts 6:1-7, we see where the twelve disciples came together and appointed 7 men to take care of a need within the church, so they would not could focus on leading/preaching to the church. Acts 6:2-4 sticks out to me most:
“So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. Brothers, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”"
I’m not saying to no help them, but I am saying that hands on helping of the main/lead/senior pastor is not a requirement, indirect helping is tho. LIkewise, Timothy does not give this requirement when listing the requirements for an overseer, he does however, note that they should be able to teach.
“Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,[a] he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.”
1 Timothy 3:1-7
“An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. Since an overseer[a] is entrusted with God’s work, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.”
Titus 1:6-9
I do agree that we should help people, but If it would interfer with the Senior Pastor’s ability to preach and lead the church, then it should be delegated to deacons and/or to a care team.
Well said, Seth.
I agree that it’s a little weird that PN is blaming these affairs on spending too much time at church. Unless he’s referring to the time spent with their personal assistants (which I’m pretty sure he has also)
But I think the term “needy” was taken out of context in your whole blog post (and maybe “clingy” too) When I first read it, I didn’t read it as needy in the spiritually or physically deprived way, but more in an emotional way. I hate to make generalizations but it’s the easiest way to describe this – like a needy girlfriend. As in these people need attention and need to be affirmed by their church or pastor or other people at their church.
I don’t think that made sense too well. It sounds great in my noggin. Thoughts?
Ryan
Spot on.
Thats is what Noble means when he talks about needy and clingy people, the ones who “its all about them” and they want things done their way.
Seth,
Romans 12:9-16 (NIV)
12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.
10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer.
13 Share with God’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn.
16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.
Perry Noble’s attitude is terrible towards his sheep. Why do you always make excuses for this guy? He clearly is not interested in being a true pastor. It’s his attitude and mouth that is the problem. Having a huge church does not pardon Noble’s scoffing at the Scriptures and mocking pastors who try to be pastors.
The Scriptures you used Seth prove Noble should not be a pastor. Just think about what you just posted.
just a few questions…
1. How did Perry come to be a pastor, who tested and approved Him, and what basis did he get tested and approved?
2. How does he remain a pastor? Is he accountable to anyone?
3. Why do people flock to this guy?
4. Why on earth to people stay under this guy. Lets face it…the majority of his blogs and sermons (at least what i’ve read and heard) are drivel.
anyone know?
David
I still think the point is being missed on the term “needy”. I don’t say that in defense of Perry or anyone else, I’m simply pointing out my opinion of how the word is being used. And I think that’s crucial to this whole argument. It changes all 7 of JD’s questions if that’s the case.
I also kind of want to address my opinions on #6 and #7
Isn’t it a pastor’s job to care for the needy?
Depending on what you mean by needy. If you mean poor, or spiritually deprived, then yes, it absolutely is. If you mean emotional, all-about-me needy, then no, it’s not. It’s not a pastor’s job (or a church’s job) to meet every whim and need of members of it’s congregation. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t love every one of them with Christ-like love and take care of one another (and the needy) but part of that Christ-like love would be showing them that it’s not about them.
What does Noble have against Christians who go to churches other than his own?
I think the down talking towards members of, and other churches does indeed get old, but I think in this case, PN may well be referring to people at NS. I think there are plenty (probably more than most churches) of people at NS who are there to get their needs met, and see what’s in it for them, and he’s referring to that. I could be wrong though.
I’m still not following how that all leads to affairs. I think that’s far too easy of a copout for those caught in affairs. While this clingy and neediness may lead to “insanity” I think that would be more likely to lead to someone being burnt out or bitter towards the church, but I don’t see how it leads someone to stay in their ministry position and have affairs.
Seth,
Which of the following would most interfere with Perry’s ability to preach: visiting a hospital or visiting Fogo de Chao in a different state?
He prides himself on not pastoring his church, but keeping the title. He’s pulled off quite a feat. He gets paid 100% for 1/3 of the work.
Weddings? No.
Funerals? No.
Hospital visits? No.
Chat after a service? Never.
Meeting on a Tuesday to ask a theological question? No.
Coffee in the morning to discuss a spiritual concern? No.
Twitter mindless thoughts? Sure, he has thousands waiting for his every tweet.
Blog updates? That’s what hip pastors do. Gotta keep up with the trends.
Coaching network to bring more adoring fans who pay $? Sure, the evangelism of PN never stops.
Lunch on a whim in Atlanta? Sure, NS will pay $30+ for lunch. What time do we leave?
This guy’s priorities seem to be singularly focused on the shepherd, not the sheep.
Maybe the NS acronym needs to be changed from NewSpring to Noble Suckers.
David J Horn
Does anyone meet every criteria to be a pastor at every point in their lives? If not, should they imediately be removed and never serve again?
Do you meet all criteria to be a christian? Do you do everything thing the Bible tells us to do everyday? If not, should you be thrown out and never allowed to return again? I/m not saying he is predestined to do these things nor am I saying that he right, but, my point is that no one lives up to the standards set forth to us 100% percent of the time.
Tommy F
Let me see whre in the Bible is says that a senior pastor is reguired to do any of the things listed. Nope, but, NS does have pastors on staff who do what you listed, so the church takes care of those things. You act like NS should be a one may show, and it isn’t. No church should be a one man show for that matter.
You fail to realize Tommy that in the church he runs, there is less hands on for him to do b/c he has staff dedicated to helping him out. In smaller or traditional churches where there are only 10 or less people on staff, the head pastor would have to do those things and would have to do more hands on b/c there arent that many people to help him. Noble does his fair share at NS.
“Twitter mindless thoughts? Sure, he has thousands waiting for his every tweet.”
I have to say Tommy, Duncan and gang must fall in this catergory, I think you guys give more importance to the tweets and apparently sit around and wait for him to tweet, because most of the time I come to this site, I found out about what they said on twitter more from here than from twitter itself.
and fyi, he sometimes can be found in the lobby before services so that you can talk to him.
I feel like this can open up a can of worms, but I’m playing devil’s advocate here.
I think this blog often puts a dangerous focus on PN and pastors of large churches that they criticize themselves. Sure, PN is the pastor, but he’s not the church.
Just one small example, and I don’t mean to pick on Tommy F, but the comment about coffee in the morning to discuss a spiritual concern. That was a hangup of mine when I first went to NS, but the truth is, if PN had coffee with each of the 11,000 who attended all the campuses last weekend, he would have a new coffee partner every morning for the next 30 years (assuming he has coffee with someone EVERY morning) Besides the fact that that’s nearly impossible, I feel like it’s putting an enormous focus on PN being THE church, which he’s not. As a member of NS, I volunteer at the church (I personally feel like everyone should volunteer at their church, but that’s just me) Through volunteering, I’ve been able to develop great relationships with other pastors at NS who I would easily be able to email or call to get coffee or talk about a theological question. And it would also be much more meaningful and personal conversation because of the relationship I have with those pastors. Why would I rather have that conversation with PN? Just because he’s PN? I don’t think so. I think that puts waaay too much focus on him, not on Jesus Christ.
Also, just to play devil’s advocate again, do you (Tommy F) have scripture to back up that any pastor is responsible for weddings, funerals or hospital visits? I feel like that is the Church’s job. And it’s also the same as the coffee argument, how would there be time to marry every single wedding in a church of 11,000? How would you decide who’s you would and wouldn’t do?
PN isn’t the reason I go to NS. The other people there are, and I believe the community and fellowship are as strong as you’ll ever find there. Just my 2 cents.
Ryan & Seth,
With respect, I think I am seeing in your words the struggle you have in deciding the worthiness of peoples needs. You are careful (particular Ryan) in defining what are legitimate needs and what are not. The fact is we are all needy. If you are raising a family, you would (or should) instinctively understand that. I also fail to understand what is so inherently wrong with going to church to get your “needs” met. At a minimum, wouldn’t you agree that religion should at least be useful? And in Christ, we begin to learn to fulfill much of our needs by helping others in their needs. But make no mistake, physical and emotional needs are both needs, and we all have them. If we don’t have them now, we will.
More to the point of PNs quote above. To me, it is remarkable in its callousness. I am not familar with any preacher who would dismiss “clingy, needy” people with such contempt and disregard. Even the emotionally selfish “in it for me” people are better served by a pastor telling them “I can’t help you, but here is someone who can, and believe me you do need help” rather than dismissing them with such prejudice and disregard. If I extend Ryan’s thoughts further, these are not needy people, they are selfish people (but PN didn’t say that, he said needy, clingy), and someone needs to be there to do them a favor by redirecting their focus. If a pastor can’t or won’t, or the spiritually strong can’t or won’t, then who will help them with their focus?
And if preachers go insane over these types of issues, then maybe it’s time for a career change. I suspect that Perry will not have that kind of problem though, as he does not appear to get too emotionally and personally involved with “needy, clingy” people anyway. It reminds me of the commercial from several years back when the executive says “I care, I just don’t care care”.
keitho
You’re absolutely right. I’m struggling with this whole issue of what legitimate needs are and are not, and it’s not really my place to say, as they may be more or less important to those particular individuals. I’m struggling to explain my interpretation of “needy” but I feel like your suggestion of “selfish” is actually more in line (but I agree, that’s not what PN said)
I don’t agree with PN’s handling of this, because the truth is, your suggestion is what happens. If you call or go by the office they will find someone to help you. There are ALWAYS people outside of the service afterwards who will talk with anyone, meet with anyone, help anyone as best they can. I guess the hang up here is that they aren’t PN himself.
My main point (and this isn’t in defense of what PN said, I don’t agree with him there) is that PN absolutely could not do all these things by himself, but NS has a great staff who can. If he tried, it would be a disaster. (And I don’t mean a planned, programmed, worst-sunday-ever distaster
I think he’s talking about the 1% of church members/attendees that want to monopolize 95% of the pastor’s time. Some people feel they have a God-given right to the pastor’s time for whatever insane reason they can think of. Personally, I don’t want my pastor burdened with the requirement that he meet some joker for coffee to discuss whether God could create a rock so big he couldn’t lift it, or whether Jesus died for space aliens, too. I do think PN seems unwilling to do a lot of the “grunt” work of pastors, but he’s not the only one in the church that can go to the hospital, attend funerals and counsel people. If I was a member of NS, I would no more expect that than I expect the CEO of McDonald’s to take my call about the french fries I got at lunch that were a bit too salty. I’m also betting that John Piper isn’t available for coffee, and that Paul Washer is too busy promoting his works plan of salvation to be the on-call chaplain at the hospital.
I think the point PN was trying to make is that a pastor’s family will suffer if he makes his flock his only priority. This is true, but not just true of pastors.
Josh – Probably right about Piper. Wrong about Washer. You know he’s trying to work his way to heaven. He’s always gonna be at the hospital
I guess some of it comes down to how uncaring (see last week’s sermon) Perry and these guys can be. Would it be so tough to say, “Listen, there is no way i could meet everyone of you,but we have loving, qualified equipped staff ready to assist you at any time.” Or something like that. Instead, he goes all overboard about how he doesn’t give a crap about their needs…etc. He honestly sees himself as a CEO, like Josh said, rather than the biblical picture of a pastor.
Seth,
I know Tommy brought out your testiness on the subject on what pastor’s should do, but let me dial down the temperature a bit by suggesting to you that when it comes to pastoring a church (and I know you want to be one at some point) I would suggest that you understand there really is no substitute for the personal touch. I come from a 4,000 member congregation where we last lived and the pastor does not visit the hospital all the time, but he does some of the time. He does weddings, he does funerals. He is there to make a few appropriate remarks during new member orientation dinners (unlike the one my wife and I attended at NS, which PN did not bother to attend, but passed off to a subordinate, whose name I can’t even remember). He partners with Deacons who make the hospital and funeral rounds as well, because that is what Deacons and pastors do. You are right that a pastor of a large church cannot possibly do it all. But he does need to take his turn with the others in servant leadership. Even Jesus washed his disciples feet. There is nothing “visionary” about stooping down to do a servants job. It’s just trying to be helpful to someone else. When you become a pastor, don’t forget that lesson. Don’t forget people like the personal touch, and that doesn’t make them needy for wanting that personal touch from their pastor.
A few minutes with the pastor can go a long way for many people in their spiritual walk. Don’t begrudge them otherwise by saying the bible does not require that you do any of these things. Of course it doesn’t, but that’s hardly the point.
Keith O
I haven’t forgotten that. Thats the idea behind the Biby study I do, to not only study and learn the Bible but to also go out in the community together and serve people, minister to peoples felt needs. The problem I have, and I just realized it, is how ironic this kind of is, Duncan and gang critize Perry for this tweets, call him self-absorbed, and make NS out to be a one man show. But in going to NS I know that is not the case, they aren’t perfect, but they aren’t bad and sending people to hell either. I think this blog actually supports some of the reasons they are critizing Noble. Think about it, they follow his tweets pretty closly disceting ones that sound alittle off, heck, Perry’s twitter feed is fedd directly to this page, and they only talk about what Perry is doing/saying/not doing. All you almost hear is Perry said, Perry did, Perry want/needs/has. They critize Pastors for acting like CEOs and yet they openly critize a certain person like you would a CEO of a company or a politician. The point here is that I understand NS, I understand Perry, I get what they are all about and I love what they do. I love what the church in general does. I don’t mind asking questions, nor do I mind fact checking someone (one day I will be doing it to myself) but I do not see the this as productive. Yes, some posts have little or nothing to do with NS and are actually quite good and have good discussion, and some NS related posts do the same, but I don’t think I belong here anymore. I may drop by from time to time but I have bigger fish to chase, dreams to pursue, and a savior whom I must follow.
Downing, David J, Tommy, Albert, Josh and to anyone else I have gone toe to toe with, I loved it, you guys are all smart people and I hope and pray God uses you and you have a life full of servitude towards Him and His calling on your lives.
to JT, Anthony, MW, Ryan and anyone who tends to fall on the side of NS from time to time, good luck with your respective ministries too, I know God will use you to in some capacity and it will be awesome.
Duncan
My time here has been, enlightening and interesting. I can say I have learned a few things along the way too. Good luck with the site, like I have said before, I will bstill be around, tho no where near as much, and as I attend NS, I will be waiting to see if/when it has any impact on Noble and crew. And be careful at AU with the swin flu, don’t want you to get sick. (no sarcasim there).
For those of you who are upset that Perry Noble won’t visit you in the hospital, won’t perform your wedding, and won’t preach at your funeral- I have a simple solution. Attend a church where the pastor will do all those things for you.
And if you’d like to continue criticizing Noble for not doing those things while you enjoy the attentions of your affirming pastor, you’d better have a scriptural reason for doing so. I can’t find anything in the New Testament that suggests that one pastor should do it all.
Bottom line– My relationship is with Christ, not the preacher.
Hmm. That’s odd. I was just thinking that this was one of the better discussions. I’ve seen give and take on both sides…actual discourse rather than just insults and such.
You see, Duncan and I aren’t the ones who post the original material. We don’t dig through closets, make up rumours, quote inside sources, or anything like that. We take just what these guys put out for public consumption and ask people to think about it. To me, this thread was when it works right. Perry tweets something goofy. Duncan posts it here, and it morphs into a serious discussion about the pastoral calling…etc.
The absolute refusal to question what Noble and Co. are putting out there really bothers me. Even in a thread like this, where good back and forth discussion was taking place, we jump from a Level 3 issue (Noble badmouthing church people) to a Level 1 issue (Seth: they aren’t bad and sending people to hell either.)
It’s just very frustrating to me. Don’t be afraid to think. Don’t be afraid to question these guys, like the Bereans did Paul. Never ignore the still, small voice that is telling you something just isn’t right.
Seth, I was in an abusive church environment for years, and stayed quiet for way too long. Hoping for unity, Praying God would change something. By the time I spoke up, it was basically too late and the damage had been done. I’m not gonna make that mistake again.
JT,
I am sorry I don’t follow you. We are trying to discuss roles of a pastor and you can’t help but criticize people for wanting the “attentions of your affirming pastor”. Are you suggesting that you are a much better christian for not needing a relationship to a preacher? I should envy you that you can go it alone, with only Jesus at your side, without anyone’s elses help, input or affirmation. If everyone had that attitude, why even be a part of the church that Jesus built. Good luck with that plan.
JT, best post I’ve ever read on this site.
James Bowen – your last two may be the worst.
I’m with you James, that’s why this is the first discussion I’ve actually jumped in. It would be a terrifying thought if leaders were never questioned, especially people who are helping lead souls. I’ve very much enjoyed this. I think you’re spot on with the fact that PN could have delivered this in a more loving tone and directed people towards those who could help them as opposed to shooting them down off the bat. That’s where PN and I differ, I’m not a fan of his attitude all the time, and I think it has a tendency to spread to his staff sometimes. (But not all staff, and not all the time)
keitho – My understanding of JT’s last post was that it’s fine if that’s what one person needs, and it’s different for another. That’s why there are so many churches. Maybe I’m off with that too, but I agree that what works for one person may not work for another. The human mind is a delicate thing. That’s what makes us all so interesting.
This has been an interesting discussion. The length and heat generated here is also amusing and frustrating. It’s amusing because it’s so predictable that when PP highlights a dumb tweet or comment, everyone goes nuts. When PP deals with something with a bit more substance, there’s generally crickets. I published two posts today. The first one on feeding from the Word is my favorite, and asks a couple of substantial questions. This becomes the one, however, that sucks up all the oxygen.
I suppose there’s not much I can do about what you choose to read and respond to, so let me address some of these issues, since you’re all here. Perhaps I can cover ground quickly by explaining what I meant by my numbered questions.
1) We are Christians because God gave us the ability to realize our absolute neediness and dependence on a savior. Even after salvation, we still need the sanctifying help of the Holy Spirit. A mature Christian knows that we can’t do this on our own. In other words, all Christians are needy.
2) (Ryan seemed to get this). We cling to the Savior. Beyond that clinging, there are times when we need to cling to God’s servants. I imagine Paul was pretty clingy with Ananias after meeting with Jesus.
3) and 4). The answer is No, but this is what Noble is implying. He makes a special point of not calling needy believers Christians. He calls them church goers, which he pointedly contrasts with being a Christian. It’s not that we’re reading something into what he said. He said that the needy were not Christians, and that churchgoers were not Christians, and he wanted to make sure when knew what he was saying. Appalling.
5) The point is that in this case the shepherd abandoned the 99 safe sheep to rescue the needy one. Needy souls matter. Oh, the response that this sheep was not needy but lost doesn’t fly. Does God abandon us after we’re saved? Anyway, PN’s saying that these needy churchgoers are lost, so doesn’t he owe them his best efforts?
6) Yes, it is the pastor’s job. Part of the way he cares for the needy is by feeding us God’s Word (the point of my earlier and favorite post today). I don’t think it stops there though. The apostles were concerned with the physical and emotional needs of the people in their care. Paul even gives Timothy advice on what he should be eating and drinking.
Some have pointed out that Perry can’t visit everyone who is sick. I agree, but I have two responses. First, perhaps this argues against megachurches. The Bible doesn’t put a limit on how large a church can grow, but perhaps when a pastor starts putting walls between himself and the crowd, the congregation is too large.
Second, although a pastor can’t visit everyone, that doesn’t mean that he should visit no-one. Jesus visited the sick. He dealt with needy and clingy (literally) people. At times he was moved and astonished by what he saw. I would think that there is tremendous value to a big-star pastor spending time holding someone’s hand as they pass into glory, or sitting around a table with a family after a devastating loss, or having lunch with a father after he lost a job. Jesus didn’t visit with everyone who came to see him, but he did visit with enough downtrodden (needy and clingy) people that he was disparaged for it. If pastors see Jesus as their example, shouldn’t they try it as well?
7) I still don’t know the answer to this.
This really upsets me.
People who cannot devote themselves entirely to the care of the sheep, like a shepherd of old, should not be ministers. Chris Roseborough has played clips of Perry saying stuff like this before on Fighting for the Faith. There is no excuse for refusing to visit people at the hospital, when you are the Pastor, and offering them Word and Sacrament, especially if they are dying. This ought to be pastoral malpractice. And if his church is so big he can’t tend to the needs of all then yes, I think this is a big knock against megachurches. What did Christ tell Peter? “Feed my sheep!”
Duncan,
You said, “perhaps this argues against megachurches. The Bible doesn’t put a limit on how large a church can grow, but perhaps when a pastor starts putting walls between himself and the crowd, the congregation is too large.”
Mark 3:7-10
You also said, “Second, although a pastor can’t visit everyone, that doesn’t mean that he should visit no-one.”
Agreed.
But whoever said Noble never visits his sick congregants, never offers comfort in their grief, and never preaches their funerals?
http://www.independentmail.com/photos/galleries/2009/may/27/firefighter-mike-hunt-funeral/
http://www.independentmail.com/news/2009/jul/03/memorial-service-set-monday-slain-anderson-teacher/
Oh, and I’m still awaiting the scriptural justification for one pastor providing care and comfort for a local church.
JT, who said PN doesn’t visit? Perry, mainly.
(A few high-profile cases that appear in the local paper may not really show him in the best light in this argument.)
I wasn’t the one who argued that one pastor should do it all, so I won’t be providing those references. It wasn’t long ago that I was trying to convince a NS apologist of the necessity for deacons, which are obviously ordained for things like comfort ministries.
Jesus could have outsourced all his personal care to his disciples while he did the more important things like coming up with red-letter sermons. He didn’t.
One more question (though not necessarily for you, JT):
How does a Noble-trained pastor know the difference between an unsaved sinner, a churched person (bad), and a “Christ follower” (good) when they ask for help?
I mean, do you have them complete an application form and check the appropriate box before you show compassion?
Sounds a little like a certain parable Jesus told about neighbors.
JDuncan,
Good question. Here’s the answer, although Seth and his friends will vehemently deny the accuracy of this report… All NS member are given a decoder. It serves two functions:
1) It helps them determine what Perry really meant whether in church, on his blog, or through his tweets (rather than what he said/wrote – which is how the rest of us hear/read him).
2) It helps them determine who is needy and clingy.
It’s a real timesaver throughout the week, but especially on Sundays and in home groups.
If Perry can’t waste his time on needy people, then why should his sheep? What’s good for the shepherd is good for the sheep, right?
James, I got a kick out of this – “How does a Noble-trained pastor know the difference between an unsaved sinner, a churched person (bad), and a “Christ follower” (good) when they ask for help?
I mean, do you have them complete an application form and check the appropriate box before you show compassion?”
It is indeed interesting.
It doesn’t excuse his behavior or tone in these messages, but I think it should be noted that NS staff (including Perry) do perform some weddings/funerals/hospital visits/care visits. But they obviously can’t do it all, and I assume the reason they make blanket decisions about funerals/weddings in particular is how would they decide who to help/visit? I know we say we want that, but the truth is, if PN did visit some people, and meet with some people, then everybody else would be man he didn’t visit with them. Not defending, just saying.
Also, I’m very very very intrigued about the “case against megachurches” because I’ve always been weary of them myself. I would love to hear a discussion on (and maybe blog post) on the solution(s) to that. What do you all propose to do to keep a church from growing so large?
I think we are straying a bit into how many visits, weddings, funerals, etc. are acceptable for a pastor to do. I do not question the care network that NS has put together. I have every reason to believe it is an effective one. But I was told at NS new member orientation that the senior pastor did not make hospital visits, do weddings or funerals. So I would have to assume that if and when he does, it’s a close friend, confidant, or a high profile person.
But back to the main point. His reference to needy/clingy people is just downright appalling, no matter what he meant by the words that eventually got strung together in the sentence.
Duncan,
You said,
“I wasn’t the one who argued that one pastor should do it all, so I won’t be providing those references.”
…but you also said,
“First, perhaps this argues against megachurches. The Bible doesn’t put a limit on how large a church can grow, but perhaps when a pastor starts putting walls between himself and the crowd, the congregation is too large.”
?
JT,
?
I don’t follow your argument here. Criticizing a pastor for doing nothing (except high-profile publicity events) is a long way from insisting that they do everything.
Heh, I’m the moderate in this debate. NICE!
OK, but the second statement that I quoted sure sounds like you think that churches shouldn’t grow so big that the pastor can’t pastor all his sheep.
The Noble defenders on this post seem to have one main issue: he can’t possibly have coffee with everyone in his church, or perform every wedding, or bury everyone, so … the argument goes, he gets a pass. Sure, I agree that he can’t do everything.
But, this argument sets up a false alternative: either he does it all, or does nothing. All or nothing? C’mon. Argue the substance, not false dichotomies.
What a preposterous defense. I can’t believe that you can’t see the arrogance of a pastor basically saying: I’m your pastor, but I won’t behave like one. I preach. I blog. I tweet. I eat. I cash my paycheck. If you want more, then go find someone else to be your pastor.
And remember the image of a pastor-shepherd would have been very significant to the 1st century. In the gospels a shepherd was so devoted he chased after 1 lost one, and in another episode laid down his life for his sheep. The image here is striking, and doesn’t work at all compared with Noble’s shepherding.
Being on a pastoral staff myself at a church (yes, I am a girl!) I totally get what Perry is saying! If you would look at what he is saying instead of trying to bust him on something then you might understand! It’s people who want you to go to their house because they have a freak’n hang nail who drive us NUTS!! It’s the times where you get 3-4 stupid phone calls like that when you really need to be studying that really will drive a pastor to insanity… maybe you should be in that position once or twice and you will figure it out instead of blogging about it!
Arielle, I’m quite sure there are people that drive you and Perry crazy; however, Perry says that because of that, they’re not saved.
Do you agree?
Does God strip us of our salvation just because we get too annoying?
Sheep can be quite annoying at times. Always needing to be fed and protected from predators…I don’t see how that excuses you from taking care of them. It’s usually the needy ones who need you most. Of course the ones that have it all together don’t require as much time.
And Arielle, maybe I’m in that position. I do other things than just blog for 10 minutes a day.
Tommy,
There is no false dichotomy here. I’ve already argued against the assertion that Noble never visits the sick, etc. He clearly does provide “care ministries”, just not to every member of his church.
And you all keep bringing up the story of the shepherd leaving the 99 to find the 1 lost sheep. While I don’t disagree with the view that pastors should show compassion and minister to those who are a part of the body of Christ, Jesus was actually describing Himself as the shepherd. The parable of the lost sheep has nothing to do with church structure or the responsibilities of ministers.
At the risk of completely hijacking this discussion, let me take it a step further and say that scripture does not support the idea of some super-elder who teaches, comforts, visits, etc. See Ephesians 4:11 & Acts 6:1-4.
JT, if shepherd only applies to Jesus, why did he ask his disciples to feed his sheep after he left? Who would do that, if not a shepherd? (Perhaps he meant for the sheep to use the late-night drive through at Taco Bell.)
Why did Paul warn the church to be on the lookout for devouring wolves? Who’d be responsible for fending them off, if not a shepherd?
JT,
Nice try. Wrong on 2 counts.
1) Perry brags about not visiting sick people and not going to weddings and eating bad food with strangers. PP didn’t initiate this conversation, he did.
2) Look again at Eph 4:11 (thanks for reminding me by the way), where Paul links shepherd with teacher. Notice the punctuation ties them together, rather than separating them – like you seem so keen to do. The role is pastor-shepherd, or teacher-shepherd. Not Preacher on Sunday, blogger 7 days a week.
Ultimately, Perry is doing himself and NS a disservice by not being actively and regularly involved with everyday needs of his congregation. You can farm out all sorts of ministries, but his insularity makes him weaker, not stronger, as a pastor. He wants you to think just the opposite, though. If he met regularly with people who lost their jobs, do you think he’d be so happy to tweet about Ruth’s Chris, a place most folk never visit once, much less every quarter? Speaking of food….
Arielle,
Have you ever gotten a call for a hangnail? Again with the ridiculous arguments? Pulleeez, what a ridiculous argument.
And Perry doesn’t visit sick people so he can study (apparently you missed the newsflash: he’s not supportive of Bible study). He apparently was busy today at the Cheesecake factory. Ok, I admit he probably studied the menu a bit before ordering.
The discussion on pastor’s roles is interesting, but that wasn’t really what caught my eye in the original PN statement, and I’m a little surprised that it hasn’t attracted much attention in these comments.
PN refused to acknowledge that needy churchgoers are Christians. He’s pronouncing anathema on people with ingrown toenails. It seems like something straight from the world of Monty Python.
You’d think that a pastor of a church whose sole focus is on bringing people to salvation would have a smidge more understanding of just what salvation is.
Duncan (& Tommy),
You said, “JT, if shepherd only applies to Jesus, why did he ask his disciples to feed his sheep after he left?”
I never said shepherd applies only to Jesus. Please re-read my statement:
“While I don’t disagree with the view that pastors should show compassion and minister to those who are a part of the body of Christ…”
Notice the “I don’t disagree…” part? That means “I agree…”
I said that the parable of the lost sheep referred to Jesus. Those using it to argue that a pastor should abandon the 99 in his flock to attend to the needs of the one lost sheep are mistaken about this parable’s meaning.
Tommy said, “Perry brags about not visiting sick people and not going to weddings and eating bad food with strangers.”
I’m not sure I’d call it bragging. What he is doing is correcting his flock when their walk with God centers on their relationship with their pastor.
If anybody would applaud Noble’s attempt to keep NewSpring from becoming even more pastor-centered, I’d think it would be the folks here at Pajama Pages.
Wow, these are great comments!
I think it would be impossible for Perry to meet all 11,000 members needs in his church and should deligate. A pastor of a church that size WOULD go insane if he tried to do that alone, but it really irks me that he makes it sound like he doesn’t care about their needs at all. The job of a pastor is to shephard his flock. That includes feeding, guiding, caring for the lame and needy, searching for the lost, and disciplining those that disobey God’s word.
It’s interesting to me that he has so little time for his people. A friend of mine went out to seattle to Mark Driscol’s church which is about the same size as NS and said Mark came up to him in the hallway and said, “you are a visitor aren’t you? I haven’t seen you here before.” That statement floored my friend. Of the thousands of members he has in his church he spotted the one that wasn’t one of his own sheep. a Shephard knows and cares for his flock. Mark talked to my friend for 15 minutes before church started. He said that it was the coolest thing he’s ever seen a pastor do. That one simple thing, making time to get to know your flock every sunday, makes a world of difference to people.
Two points:
1) I see Noble speak with church-goers on an almost weekly basis, prior to the service. Show up to NewSpring early and head towards the front left of the auditorium. He’s the tall redneck with the bald security guy standing next to him.
2) While I agree with Noble’s in his argument against “needy” church-goers monopolizing the pastor’s time, I also recognize that he would probably avoid his controversy if he toned down the “I don’t want to eat food I don’t like with you” bit. It’s not the most gracious, humble way to put it. In fact, it actually detracts from his argument, as those who hear this get so shocked by the tone and language, that they miss the truth behind it.