Coming down off the wall
Posted: July 15th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Leadership | 40 Comments »Noble, Furtick and many other church leaders are often eager to invoke the example of Nehemiah rebuilding the wall around Jerusalem to justify their refusal to engage critics. Nehemiah is asked to meet with his enemies outside the wall, and replies in Nehemiah 6:3
I sent messengers to them with this reply: “I am carrying on a great project and cannot go down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and go down to you?”
Leave-me-alone leaders use this example to convince themselves and others that they are doing the right thing by staying on the wall and ignoring everybody who points out problems.
People are hating on you. They are attacking you. They are flat out lying about you. They’ve never been to your church and they attempt to judge your character by listening to selected portions of your sermons. (Which would make them superficial!)
Pastor…church leader…don’t come down off the wall!!!
Noble uses the idea to encourage Rick Warren:
Keep up the incredible work…and not to come down off the wall & get tangled up in the web that the enemy seeks to spin through detractors.
From Furtick:
Maybe you’re a pastor squaring up with a carnal deacon board, trying to pursue a God given vision in the face of tremendous scrutiny and opposition.
Stay on the wall, Nehemiah. That deacon board can’t stop you. God is fighting for you! Dream, implement, preach, evangelize, cast vision.
It will come to pass.
There are a number of problems with hiding behind Nehemiah 6.
- Jerusalem is not analogous to a church. Nehemiah was building a wall that served as a real physical defense against its enemies. By the beginning of chapter 6, the wall was strong enough to withstand an assault, though the doors were not finished yet, so he was racing the clock. Nehemiah’s enemies needed to draw him beyond the walls to be able to attack him. If Perry Noble wants to think of himself as Nehemiah, why is he building a wall to keep people out of church?
- Nehemiah was responding to a lie. Nehemiah’s enemies falsely offered to talk, but they were really trying to kill him.
- Nehemiah did reply. Four times Nehemiah engaged them by asking them to justify their request. He wasn’t so busy that he couldn’t respond; he was wise enough to know when he was being deceived. Nehemiah 4 also details how Nehemiah responded to complaints from his own people, even removing people from the work on the wall.
- Nehemiah faced real enemies. Sanballat, Tobiah and Geshem were setting up an ambush to kill Nehemiah. Chapter 4 tells us what their motives were, then chapter 6 details the means of their conspiracy to defeat Nehemiah and attack Jerusalem.
The problem with using Nehemiah’s wall as an excuse to ignore criticism is that it’s unnecessarily divisive. It says that critics are lying mortal enemies of the church. Rather than framing Christian critics as being outside the wall, it would be more accurate and constructive to consider them inside-the-wall co-workers looking for the best way to perform the task.
On many occasions on this blog I’ve been asked to affirm that Noble and I are on the same team. I’ve answered in the affirmative.
What do you think Noble and Furtick would answer if the same-team question were asked of them? Their use of Nehemiah 6 suggests that they would say no.
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- Question me, Oppose God
- Solving the vision problem
- Stuff I wish I’d said
- Running the Numbers
- Being judicious about judging
“A wise man listens to cousel.” “A fool hates correction.”
Having said that and agree with your point to an extent I would also say that it’s really hard to face oposition to something you feel is clearly laid out in scripture.
I have been there and it is really hard to hold your tongue and you feel like the world is against you. Even more so for these guys, but God sets up church government for this reason. When the elders don’t agree with what I’m doing or saying, even if they are dead wrong, it should take the weight off of my shoulders to know that they are responsible for that descision and I can wipe my hands clean.
In the face of critics who have never been to your church or have picked apart things you have said without getting the main point, I would say that that that can be a very heavy weight on a pastor and can destroy him. That’s why I think in light of this its better to seek a relationship and get to know someone before nitpicking.
However, if a pastor is a blatant heretic like some of the Emergents are (ex. Joel Olsteen), they need to be named and scrutinized and we need to warn people against them. It’s a fine line and hard to see sometimes, but it’s better to be patient and listen carefully to what they are saying before judging them.
“In the face of critics who have never been to your church or have picked apart things you have said without getting the main point, I would say that that that can be a very heavy weight on a pastor and can destroy him. That’s why I think in light of this its better to seek a relationship and get to know someone before nitpicking.” MW
How can you get a relationship when PN refuses to try? I tried when I was a NewSpringer several times to talk to him only to be ignored and given speed bumps to stop me.
The concerns expressed about PN are not nitpicking and are laid out in the Scriptures. Refer to my other post on this blog.
#1-Noble never said Jerusalem is analogous to a church. He refered to the work Nehemiah was doing. Nehemiah was doing something God wanted him to do and people were trying to stop him from doing it. Perry uses this the same way, Perry (or any other christians) are doing a work of God, they are doing what they know God wants them to do and therefore do not need to be distracted by people who want them to stop.
#2-There are people out there who want to bring down the ministry of the church. Some people claim to be critics when really thye just want to church to stop reaching people therefore, they are also liars and decievers. Instead of talk, they want to kill your ministry. I have heard first hand lies that people at churches have said about NS. I know people do it. (note, I am not saying everyone is, but it does happen)
#3-”Nehemiah 3 also details how Nehemiah responded to complaints from his own people, even removing people from the work on the wall.” I don’t see anywhere in chapter 3 where this happens. Unless I missed it but i read it like 4 times.
#4-”Chapter 3 tells us what their motives were” I would like to ask, that is not in my chapter 3 in my Bible, so I think some corrections need to be made here.
You missed the analogy that Noble was alluding to here, he wasn’t saying that the church is Jerusalem, He is saying that what Nehemiah was doing is a work of God, that can be anything from a homeless shelter, to a missions trip, to planting a church to anything that God has called someone to do. SO the WORK on the wall is what he is talking about. Not the place, not the job of the wall, but the WORK. That you cannot be distracted. He has never said nor alluded to keeping people out of church.
LOL Seth…does PN and NS ever do anything wrong in your opinion? James Duncan explained Neh very well.
David J
I have stated many times that they don’t get everything right and I don’t disagree that Duncan explained Nehemiah very well. My point was that the 4 reasons Duncan drew against the use of it had errors. Such as the scripture error, I don’t know what Bible Duncans uses, but chapter 3 in mine does not have these examples Duncan claims that it has. Again, like i said, Noble is talking about the WORK, not the place.
Also, seeing how much you love to use scripture to make sure people are right (which I am NOT against), I thought maybe you would have seen Duncans use of chapter 3 (since none of the versions I have in my home contain what Duncan claims it contains) as being incorrect. Unless in your eyes Duncan can do no wrong.
Seth
“Again, like i said, Noble is talking about the WORK, not the place”.
Since when has church become a place?
I actually agree with your idea of Neh referring to work and not church,per se. However, your heros brought the church connection in first. Read their comments again.
Seth,
One of the dangers is equating Jerusalem with the church, as jduncan so stated.
Sounds like you agree.So what’s the argument?
Keith0
I do not see where they refer to the church. I have listened to the Nehemiah sermon by Perry, I was there when he gave it, and as Duncan proves
“they attempt to judge your character by listening to selected portions of your sermons”
he skipped the part where they reference that it is about the work you are doing for God not about keeping people out.
And correction, you assume they are my heroes, wrong assumption. One is my pastor and the others are people I learn from. But do not think the list stops with them, I can provide a full list of everyone whom I listen to and follow if you would like.
Also, my comment about it being a place stems from Duncan
“If Perry Noble wants to think of himself as Nehemiah, why is he building a wall to keep people out of church?”
The way the word church is used there must mean a physical place. Or so that is how i understood it to be. So I was just going of what Duncan said
oh, and my Hero is Jesus. I try to be like him as much as I can and follow Him as closely as I can.
Keith0
Actually, a question I have is when Duncan talks about chapter 3, I am curious what part he means as I don’t see what he claims to be there. I love the book of Nehemiah, one of my all time favorites, so I am curious where in the book he finds his info.
Seth,
You’re right about not being able to find those references in chapter 3. They’re in chapter 4. My mistake.
Now that we’re all looking in the right place, the motives of the enemy are in Nehemiah 4:7-8, and the reassignment of workers is in Nehemiah 4:16-18. The point I was making is that building the wall was not so important that Nehemiah blocked out all suggestions and complaints, neither was it so important that he couldn’t slow it down to take care of other important needs.
On another point, the type of work Neh was doing is important. It was essential physical work to protect the lives and property of the people of Jerusalem. There was a real physical threat to their lives. For leaders to appeal to Nehemiah and let that exempt them from the NT invitations to test leaders requires them to make a very important argument that 1) their work dare not be stopped or slowed, and 2) that their opponents are trying to kill them.
I don’t see PN or SF successfully making either argument.
Look, if PN can drive to Atlanta for lunch, the work he’s doing doesn’t come close to what Nehemiah was dealing with.
MW,
We’ve been over this before. I’m not reaching into his church to mess with what he says or does there. I’m interacting with the ideas he presents to the world in a public forum. He’s offering himself and his ideology as a good example for other pastors and churches to follow. I’m merely using the same forum that he is.
As for requiring a personal relationship first, that is impossible. Even Tony Morgan couldn’t do it, and he was PN’s right-hand man. Watch this space over the next few days for evidence that there are no conditions under which PN will ever meet a critic.
Seth,
Well put and thanks.
PN talks about critics who have “never been to your church” and Furtick talks about a preacher’s battle with a “carnal deacon board” and I have to think that maybe they are talking about church stuff.
Many other ministers I have heard through my lifetime (both good and bad) tried to make the same connection to Nehemiah, with its usual justification of ignoring critics, with the same result that suggests that leaders are somehow above all criticism. As a lay person in the audience, this reasoning has always smacked of arrogance to me long before I have ever heard of NS or any emergent church leader.
I would acquaint this website with LUST AND JEALOUSY. All you guys do is stalk what Perry Noble, Steven Furtick, Rick Warren and others say and blog about it on here like cowards. It seems to me that all of you are jealous OF PEOPLE GETTING SAVED! I know of atheists attending these churches and giving their life to Christ and all you can do is sit here and bash what is going on in His church! How dare you! You all ought to be ashamed of yourself and the message you are sending to others. Just because the way they preach and teach isnt the way that you would do it, doesnt make it wrong. The only thing Christians are called to do is reach people for the cause of Christ and if you all are Christians maybe you should stop wasting your time judging men of Christ and focus your attention on the mirror and how you need to prepare your heart so that God can speak to you. Are you jealous because they have tens of thousands of people attending their church? James, you said that you attended NewSpring but left and your upset because Perry didnt meet with you. You honestly sound like a five year old kid who didnt get the flavor of popsicle you wanted. GET OVER IT AND YOURSELF! Perry doesnt dislike you (he may now and rightfully so)
Did you ever even consider all the souls that are being changed? Huh? They teach the Holy Bible from these churches and you are doing God, our savior, a complete injustice by bashing His church and His children. How could you ever acquaint this to a cult when all Perry does is denounce getting ego-tistical about attending NewSpring? Listen to his last message, that’s exactly what he said. Read Leviticus 19…specifically verse 18. There are pastors and teachers that I dont particularly care for but I dont have the courage to disobey my Heavenly Father and openly disgrace His creation.
Anthony – IS there any case where anyone should ever speak out about what someone is doing in the name of Christ?
James,
Yes there is…WHEN THEY ARENT PREACHING THE BIBLE! Perry Noble is not a perfect man, do you know of any pastor that is? There are things that Perry has said (and trust me I listen to alot of his messages because I think he is an amazing communicator) that have made me take a double take but not because they are wrong, it’s because they make me ponder and apply it to my Christian walk. BTW…are you all do is criticize these Men of God everyday, like I said before, do YOU EVER take the time to look into the mirror and focus on your downfalls and the way you relate His message to the lost? Got a rebuttal for you James…is there ever any case to continuously bash a fellow Man of God?? hmmmm….
Hi Anthony, I think if you’ll read a few of the posts, you will see amlpe evidence that what these guys are asying is often a misuse of scripture. I just did a post showing how they misuse Gamaliel’s advice. Instead of making these big posts with large sweeping generalizations, you should actually argue against the points being made. I’d be glad to take into consideration any biblical backing that you can offer.
2.) Yes, I evaluate myself daily, and I also make myself available to be critiqued by others.
3.) Bash isn’t a word I’d use, but I’d say when a preacher constantly makes the same errors, he should constantly be called into question.
James,
Perry only allows people that love him and love Jesus to critique him. I would hope you don’t let random people (such as all on this page that do their so called “critiquing”)critique you cus if you do, just know those people may love Jesus but random people won’t love you, not in the way you’d want a “critiquer” to do. All you are random people to Perry and I would be concerned if he did listen to what you people have to say. Perry Noble is an amazing man of God, and has pumped me up! Can’t wait to see what God’s going to do next! Probably save more and more people in the name of the one we all serve! Jesus!
David,
Please explain to me how I can get to Perry Noble? I tried several times when I was a member of NewSpring. Please explain to me how I can talk to him face to face o via phone, e-mail, blog, etc… I was not a random person when I tried to reach Perry Noble several times. Each time I was intercepted by the Campus Pastor and not allowed to speak to Perry Noble the pastor.
David,
You know Perry personally? If not, then whether or not you went to the church, you were/are a random person to him. As of now, he is a busy man, he had 4 meetings today and is preparing for Unleash next year. 9 times out of 10 when you call a big organization of any kind, you will speak to a secretary like person and possibly many other people before you get a chance to talk to the Head person. Why is it so important for you to reach him? His church is about 12,000 right now, I guarantee he has meetings with people all the time, His priorities are God, his family, then the church. So juggling his time with God, his family and then church members/the church, I doubt you will get too many opportunities to personally speak with him, at least not right away.
David,
That does not cover Perry Noble’s antics and actions…sorry.
David read my post on this blog and you will see why it’s important that I wanted to meet Perry Noble and not a speed bump on the way. I have Scriptural concerns that he should address that directly affected my children when I was a member of NewSpring. Scripturally speaking Noble should meet with me because of this issue(which I will not get into on this blog).
David J, you are not going to meet PN, so you probably should stop trying.
David (the other David), you are correct. The organization is too large for PN to meet everyone who wants to talk to him.
Everyone else, the issue is not really whether one person or another can meet with Perry Noble to speak with him. As a good steward of his time, he should not do that. The problem is that he has a rule that you cannot criticize him unless you do it personally. That’s awfully convenient when he can not/will not meet with anyone outside his inner circle–an inner circle whose livelihood depends on his goodwill.
James D,
When the issue personally affects my family, then Perry Noble should at least exchange e-mails with me. My point is he would not make an effort to do so. Perry Noble has time to run, Twitter, etc…, therefore when a person like me goes through the chain of NewSpring command (Campus Pastor,sec, etc…) for weeks, then Perry should try to make some sort of effort. It’s not like I was just being critical of him and ignoring NewSpring’s line of communication. I had a legit complaint and question that the Campus Pator(who is not a pastor BTW) could not answer without telling me,”it’s always been this way and if you do not buy into the NewSpring vision then NewSpring is not for you.” This was back when I wanted to remain in NewSpring and I was trying my best to get an answer that was unanswered by his staff.
I think my experience expands on your points James D. No matter if I told the Campus Pastor,” I’ll drive to Anderson any day of the week, buy Perry lunch, I’ll wait months if needed, etc…” it would not matter because I am not in the inner circle. I know Perry will not meet with me, I’m just pointing out that no matter how hard we outside of the inner circle try it’s impossible to speak to him by voice, e-mail, etc…
I’m trying to illustrate that Perry’s methods of being able to be critical of him puts Noble in a position where nobody can ever be critical of him. No matter how hard you try, how long we wait, how sincere we are, and how many times we appeal to the chain of command it does not matter. I would meet Obama before I would get to meet Perry!
I hope I clarified my points and position.
Wow Im so proud of Perry! I’m so glad he doesn’t listen to every person who has an opinion about him! Really, thats very intelligent to only listen to his inner circle, cus his inner circle, Love him and love Jesus.. You on the other hand don’t love him, if you did you wouldn’t have a website for the purpose of correcting his every teaching. He has done nothing but help me grow in Christ and I thank God for him. You can take a verse and preach on many diff. aspects of it as long as your not adding or taking away from it. Therefore your critiques may very well be genuine and correct but who are you to say he is wrong? This man has a passion for God and to see the lost saved. I guarantee he doesn’t even know this website exists, so how are you calling this critiquing when it sounds to me like gossip. God didn’t give him a vision for the church and put it in to action just to hear what a guy by the name of James Duncan has to say. No man can come to the Father unless drawn by the holy spirit, so if people are getting saved and atheists are now commiting to Christ, who are you to judge his teachings cus obviously his messages aren’t hindering the Holy Spirit. Are you a Pastor James Duncan?
I agree with you on that David J, but does that give you a right to just keep talking about him behind his back? I’m sorry you didn’t get your question answered, if I had a concern with a church I was attending, I would want some answers also, maybe you came across in a misunderstanding way? A church that large though will not have the same benefits of getting questions answered on a personal level, they are right then to say if Newspring isn’t right for you then find a smaller church. There are many amazing churches out there, Newspring doesn’t have to be the one you attend nor bash only becasue you ddin’t get the attention you needed at the time. I hope you understand where I am coming from also, cus I also see your point
David J, I sympathize with you and don’t disagree that you have good cause to meet with PN. I was in the same boat when I tried to get his ear about the parenting billboards a couple of years ago. There’s a wall that neither you nor I will ever get past.
The point is that everyone who says that we shouldn’t criticize unless we have met PN and have a personal relationship needs to hear what David J and I are saying. PN makes public statements against the church, refuses private communications about them, then complains that people make a public response.
How important is that in the scheme of things? When you stand face to face with God, are you going to tell him. “I spent all my time on a website complaining about a man you called to preach cus I didn’t agree with his critiquing methods and didn’t like that since I wasn’t in his “innercircle” I couldn’t communicate with him”. Its not a big deal, and this is my last post, cus nobody has explained the importance of this website and how it is used to glorify God. You should be out witnessing to people not complaining about matters that really aren’t a big deal, if you don’t like Perry’s style and vision then find another church, just like they already told you. Kinda makes sense. I can point out clearly problems I see with this website that the bible talks about so how dare any of you be so caught up in what another man is doing to further the kingdom of God, and have nothing good to say. Just like the bible says, How can a man take out a speck in a man’s eye, before he takes the plank out of his own first.. Sounds like you all have plank. Continue your worthless conversation and I hope God reveals to you your ignorance.
David,
You and I both know you are still reading this blog.
Can you please point to these examples where this blog violates or contradicts what is recorded in scripture? I’m sure Duncan and Downing would be open to that critique.
I think it’s funny how everyone on this blog refuses to answer questions. I am not disputing that a couple of you know the bible or atleast think you do. What I am disputing is the fact that you blatantly bash a fellow Man of God. Answer that for once you so called Christians…
Anthony,
The Bible commands us to call these people out by name and mark them. Research the Scriptures….
Anthony – my personal answer to your question about “bashing a man of God” – and I answered this before, btu I get the sense you don’t actually read what i write…anyway:
Perry Noble, and pastors like him have great influence over a large group of people. The problem is, they’ve isolated themselves from any REAL criticism. The inner-circle is hand-picked, and people who disagree are removed from that circle. Therefore, a public forum is the only real means of critique. I don’t think my involvement in this blog will ever change the way Perry Noble does things, but it can be a warning to others to question what they are seeing, and allow all of us to examine how we practice our beliefs, and why we do it. I am concerned about the future of the church in general, and having pastors as influential as Noble misusing scripture on a regular basis doesn’t make it any better.
The Pastor at my church just went through an extremely hard time because people in our church were criticizing him to death. It was nearly the death of his ministry. He is like a dad to me so it effected me a lot when I saw it happening. He and I don’t agree on everything but we try to spend more time encouraging each other than criticizing. What’s awesome is that our relationship gives us the opportunity (especially me) to listen to each other. I love that.
When others were criticizing him I saw a passionate man turn into a sick and broken down man. It hurt to watch and I was on my knees praying for him daily. Some of his critics turned on me too and it intensified the hurt.
I love when people give me advice. I know my pastor does too. It’s just really hard when people become so negative that they beat you into the ground. I love counsel, I am just not big on critics.
I lived with a family out in Kansas on a farm for a summer a while back and had an incredible time. The mother of the family was one of the smartest women I have ever met. She could debate theology and philosophy about as well as anyone I had ever heard. She would have made Greg Bahnsen proud. The coolest thing I ever learned from her though was that you should always give two praises for every criticism or rebuke. She would do this to me all the time and I learned that I listened to her better than I ever listened to anyone else before that. I would always walk away from a rebuke feeling awesome and refreshed and ready to change.
I know it’s impossible to get a private meeting with these guys so I’m not saying that you need to do that (thanks James D for the reminder) But maybe more praise for the awesome things that these guys do along with a critique. Also, maybe suggestions on how they could fix it. I would love to read a blog that says “here’s what you are doing right in this situation,” “here’s the problem” and “here’s a suggestion.” They might read it and be moved by your counsel.
That’s my suggestion for you guys. If they won’t give you a private venue then give them counsel to read.
Nice timing, MW. I’m in the middle of a “suggestion” post right now. Look for it a bit later.
Anthony,
I have said the same thing in the past and I agree that if we just bash then we shouldn’t name names unless they are false prophets. So, I don’t agree with David J. Scripture reserves that for false prophets only. If he can prove they are false prophets then he has the right to do that. Otherwise they are brothers on the same side of the battle line as us. It’s not smart to shoot people in your own regiment. We lost Stonewall that way!! haha!
But, If we can give them healthy, kind and loving counsel with what we say then I’m all for that on here. That’s why I suggested what I did in my last post. What we are talking about here could really help their ministry and ours through these conversations. I’ve already considered things for my own ministry from some of these conversations.
James Downing,
“I don’t think my involvement in this blog will ever change the way Perry Noble does things, but it can be a warning to others to question what they are seeing, and allow all of us to examine how we practice our beliefs, and why we do it.”
Well said. How dare we think that just because we prayed Jesus into our heart that we somehow think its right to withhold our minds from God. Only when we submit our minds fully to God can he teach us to discern what we are being told and how to make better decisions; ultimately taking responsibility before him for what we think and what we do.
Given some of the comments on this post, I wonder if some are really beyond the Jesus in their heart stage (btw, this is not far from Jesus in the imagination). David said earlier in this post “Perry Noble is an amazing man of God, and has pumped me up!” I wonder if that will be his happy thought to lean on later when life really throws him a curve, and he goes through the storm alone, and Perry isn’t there to “pump him up”.
MW,
False prophets? Where did I say Noble was a false prophet? We are on the same side. I have never said Perry Noble was not a Christian.
Romans 16:17-20 (NASB)
16:17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
19 For the report of your obedience has reached to all; therefore I am rejoicing over you, but I want you to be wise in what is good and innocent in what is evil.
20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.
Perry Noble does not obey Col 3:8
Perry Noble distorts what “do not love the world” means in the Scriptural meaning. 1 John 2:15-17
To call Perry Noble out on his rebellion(refer to his foul mouth) and his false teaching about the world and Christians, is not to call him a false prophet. It’s simply issuing a warning to all follow Perry Noble using the Holy Scriptures. It’s a plea to him to follow the authority of the Scriptures vs his thoughts that are contrary to the Scriptures.
1 Timothy 1:18-20 (NASB)
1:18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,
19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.
Where in the world did you come up with we can only be critical of preachers who are false prophets and only call out a false prophet by name? It’s clearly not a biblical teaching.
Yes, we are to call out false prophets. Yes, we are to warn people against false doctrines. I would love to meet Noble in private and discuss this, BUT he will not meet anyone except the inner circle. Perry blast the orthodox church in public(remember the middle finger remark), cusses in public(refer to Perry’s blog and twitter post), and cast stumbling blocks to weak Christian in public( the sex craze ads etc…worldly music AC\DC), therefore we are critical of Perry Noble in public because it is the forum that Perry Noble uses to blast all who disagree w/NewSpring and him. If there was a way to talk to him, I would be one of the first in line because I love him in the Lord. The rebellious path Perry is on is laid out in the Scriptures.
To correct a brother in Christ(private or in public) is not to call him a false prophet.
Galatians 2:11-14 (NIV)
2:11 When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong.
12 Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
David J,
Sorry, didn’t mean to misquote you if I did, but earlier you said that we are to call them out and name them. I took this to mean call out a brother in Christ and name him in public. I meant that naming names is reserved for false prophets, not brothers. With brother, we cover their sins with love.
I do see that you are calling his actions public, which if you are correct in rebuking him for them then it should be a public rebuke but a public rebuke always needs to be directed at the person. A rebuke must not go out unheard by the party. I don’t know if Perry is reading this, but a public statement of rebuke should go something like this. “Hey Perry, I know you are reading this blog so since you won’t let me come talk to you I’ll rebuke you here by saying…” I’m not saying that’s the only way to say it but that way gets across a point. A rebuke is pointed and the person being rebuked in scripture hears it. Otherwise it is not a rebuke. It’s complaining, or sowing seeds of discord or something similar to that.
All I’m saying is if you name names it better be because the person is a false prophet or because you are rebuking them and they can hear the rebuke.
That’s my thoughts
MW, he reads it. He definitely reads it. As do most of his staff.
MW,
No problem