Does this Describe Your Pastor?
Posted: August 13th, 2009 | Author: James Downing | Tags: Criticism, Furtick | 39 Comments »Here we see Furtick once again slamming other Pastors…something he tells the rest of us not to do:
I am saying that the way we train pastors in our country prepares them to be more like Mister Rogers than Joshua. Or Jesus.
And most pastors who are formally trained graduate with a Ph.D in pomp and prissiness, with no clue how to engage the enemy, draw first blood, and strategically occupy a city with the rule of the Kingdom of God.
Because of the perception of Pastoral ministry we’ve perpetuated, the sharpest and highest potential young leaders in our country go on to do other things with their lives.
After all, who wants to give the best years of their lives to keeping a committee of angry white deacons happy about the carpet color and the type of flowers in the vestibule?
- Why did Steven feel the need to attend seminary if MOST pastors who are formally trained end up with a Phd in “pomp and prissiness”? I’m not even sure what that means, but I’m fairly certain that it is an insult aimed at most pastors. Doesn’t Furtick display himself here as THE one with THE answers? The implication is that, unlike most pastors, Steven knows how to engage the enemy, draw first blood, and strategically occupy a city. Can you show me anywhere in scripture where it says a pastor is required to do those things?
- Is this really the reason why all our sharpest leaders choose to do something else? Is Steven inferring here that if we marketed the job of pastor a little better, bright young leaders would come from all around to get in on the action? Where does God’s will fit in to that description? Is there no such thing as a call to ministry, or is the pastoral role just a place to exercise leadership skills?
- And…more lame attacks on the carpet color. I’m really tired of that urban legend. I’ve been hearing about churches splitting over carpet colors my whole life, but I’ve never actually found an instant of that happening. Kinda like the kid who ate Pop Rocks while drinking Pepsi and blew up his stomach.
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That story about the pop rocks is true! It happened the this guy that was a friend of my roommate’s cousin in college.
Josh — thats hilarious…of course if noone was hurt too badly.
Was Jesus a wuss? or was He bold? That is the view alot of non believers and heck sometime believers get of Jesus was that He was a pushover! Jesus was a rebel, he went to the houses and ate with the sinners. He didnt wear a suit and tie and say nice things all the time. He said what needed to be said to get his point across, wore sandals and walked everywhere while occasionally riding a donkey. Pastors that wear suit and ties dont gain an automatic entrance into Heaven. I know that this was not illustrated in your post James, I’m just saying for my point.
James, Steven was called to plant a church in a major metropolitan city so just because he didnt indicate it directly it is indirectly meant that those being called are turned away and that is dangerous for them because they are ignoring and sinning against God and His will.
Second, I dont believe you need to attend seminary in order to be a pastor. There is a reason they joke and call it “cemetary.” Just because you can read the bible in seven different languages doesnt make you “Holier”
My pastor is the greatest man of God I know and he doesnt have a degree from seminary because it’s not necessary.
Furtick has said in his blog this entire week that Elevation doesnt provide or have all the answers. It’s always been about One person and thats JESUS NOT STEVEN! If he doesnt hae the right to bash churches then does that give you the right to bash him? Does two wrongs make a right?
Anthony,
Whether or not he has the right isn’t in question. The fact is, he’s doing it. And I really wouldn’t call good, constructive criticism “bashing.” Call it what it is. Criticism. Also, remember, no one is above reproach.
I feel like Furtick and others like him bash seminary in order to make themselves feel better about not having the discipline to earn a degree. This is completely arrogant. Furtick must think that he has all the answers and that seminary is beneath him. I wonder if thinks that surgeons, dentists, and or lawyers should shun med school, dental school, or law school? Does Elevation hire lawyers without law school degrees to handle their legal work?
And why did it have to be “angry white deacons”? Was that really necessary?
And, you’re right. The carpet reference is indeed lame and played out. But, these pastors need it to be real in order to say the things they say.
Sara-
Actually, Steven does have a 4 year college degree AND a masters seminary degree, believe it is from somewhere in SC and he finished it in the last year or two. I also remember that he started his ministry (I know his wife) with a 40 day fast…I doubt any person who can do that lacks discipline, just sayin. That is a very bold thing for you to throw out there without knowing the facts, considering they are criticizing him for making generalizations like that.
And the church I grew up in argued about carpet colors more than once, as well as curtain colors, paint colors, and everything else you could imagine. And now they don’t exist anymore…Maybe it’s a Southern thing.
Actually Sara, Furtick does have a degree from seminary, do your research. The carpet thing is not played out, its TRUE. Obviously not that exact instance, but to be honest that may have actually happened a couple times. I have heard of churches arguing between church or pews, things like that. Shouldnt they be worrying more about Jesus and the lost? hmm…
Plus deacons kinda make me laugh
Can we just get rid of that position??
There are some dangerous trends with young evangelical pastors right now and their churches that trouble me…here are a few that I have observed…
1. They are very skeptical of higher theological eduaction as well as theology itself. A deeds not creeds mentality.
2. Many of these churches…Elevation, Newspring, Willow Creek, etc. are a one-man show. There is not true Biblical leadership. Show me in the Bible where a church is supposed to be lead by a “lead” pastor and staff.(or senior pastor and deacon model for that matter). Does not the N.T. teach a plurality of elders/pastors/overseers and the office of deacon serving the physical needs?
3. Everyone has to come up with their own unique vision and mission, and be loyal to it all cost. I have found that many of these guy’s “visions” are only half the vision the Bible sets forth. (still working on that thought). Has not the bible already given us a vision and mission and the means by which to attain this vision
4. Once a person gets saved, they are to fall in line and serve/volunteer or leave. Church isn’t for you…be a self-feeder of the word. I find this troubling because so many of these guys use topical sermons with very little scripture. what scripture is used is taken out of the context. There is very little expositoin and explanation of the text. how can they expect their people to be self-feeders if they don’t model good exegesis in their own sermons.
5. Very little to no understanding of the Sufficiency of Scripture and it’s implications for the church.
…just some thoughts i’m working through.
Anthony,
Nope, sorry. Scripture clearly lays out church order and leadership. Phil ch1 talks specifically about deacons I believe.
Paul,
in total agreement……
on pop rocks and pepsi:
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/poprocks.asp
Yeah, we can’t really just get rid of deacons as it is a position established by the Bible. But the deacons in the Bible and those in churches today are off on what they are suppose to be doing and what they are about.
I will say that many churches have many leadership models. NS for example is Perry is the Senior Pastor and serves with a leadership team of elders. They make decisions on what the church will do and how it is run. They are oversighted by a board of overseers, made up of Christian Leaders throughtout the southeast who hold NS, Perry and staff accountable. If they wanted to, they could meet and fire Perry today. Yes, in the leadership meetings Perry has a stronger voice but in the end they make decisions together. An even more Biblical model is the one Mars Hill has, They have a board of 11 elders who run the church, yes Mark Driscoll is one of the more widely known Elders they have, in the Leadership meetings his vote and voice count only once. Every church has different Leadership set-ups as I find and study them.
Someone needs to get MythBusters to investigate the Curious Case of the Cleaving Christian Carpets.
We hear the carpet thing so often, as you point out. What’s especially frustrating about it is that Noble (and probably Furtick) doesn’t really believe it, because when churches aren’t guilty for caring too much about carpet, they’re guilty of caring too little about it.
One of the first posts I ever read from PN was this one, which mocked the facilities of churches he doesn’t like.
He goes on to complain about how other churches let old people (gasp!) teach Sunday School.
Care too much about your carpet=you hate the lost.
Care too little about your carpet=you hate the lost.
Got it?
I wonder why guys like him become pastors…30 years of seeker sensitivity and church growth paying off I guess…
SF may have a degree, I’m not disputing that. But SF’s degrees list is not really the issue. This issue here is the disdain with which the seeker sensitive church pastors view seminary. It is to be commended when someone wants to study in depth, the vocation of his or her choice, not shamed. It is arrogant for pastors to act as if they don’t need a seminary education. NS has many “pastors” on staff. I’m not sure how many of them actually have formally studied their craft, but I would guess not very many. To me, the title “pastor” ranks in importance with such titles as “mom,” or “dad,” or “teacher.” It is a title which carries a great amount of responsibility and should not be taken lightly. To label someone a pastor just because he or she works at a church is, frankly, a joke. I am fully aware that being a pastor requires much more than a seminary education, but it’s a good start.
Sheryl, since you are obviously close to SF, maybe you could answer some questions. If he did go to seminary, which I’m not disputing, why is he so disrespectful to others who choose to go?
You accused me of being bold in calling SF arrogant. I don’t retract that. I do think he thinks quite highly of himself. (refer to the massive fee he charges people to listen to him talk mentioned on this blog) And I do think SF believes he has “church” figured out way better than his counterparts who have also attended seminary, but choose to do church differently than him. But, I’m not bold at all. What is bold, though, is SF’s childish Kumbaya rant against Bible study. Bold and stupid.
“I feel like Furtick and others like him bash seminary in order to make themselves feel better about not having the discipline to earn a degree.”
Sara, I thought you were disputing that by this statement. I’m not sure how i misunderstood that. Anyways, I actually am not close to Steven, I never stated that. I know/knew his wife growing up and have very loosely kept up with her. But I never stated that we were close.
And reading back through my comment above, I never said anything about you calling him arrogant, just undisciplined, so again, can’t help you there, wasn’t my point. It sounds like you’re the one that seems to know him so well, since you’ve got him all figured out. Best of luck to you.
Why couldn’t he have just said, Pastors need to be manly and not effeminate? The slam doesn’t help the argument. People stop listening after a slam or they just think you are insecure.
I agree that Pastors need to be manly and this society has created a lot of effeminate men and pastors, but He’s slamming pastors and then turns around and says don’t slam him.
I like the broad perspective of manly shepherds the bible gives us examples of (Peter, Paul, David, Elijah, John the Babtist, Isaiah, etc). They all fell INCREDIBLY short of Jesus though. I wonder what Furtick would call manly?
I tend to have the Peter syndrome and have to be careful about that. I tend to act or speak before I think. I used to think that was manly but have learned that it’s just unwise and keeps people from listening to you. I think he suffers from this but doesn’t seem to understand that it doesn’t help his cause. He needs to shut his mouth some times and think about the hearts he is shepherding. I’m sure there are people in his congregation that are egged on to disobedience and chaotic behavior because of the way he handles the pulpit. Being manly isn’t being harsh and loud. It’s being aware of the hearts you are shepherding, knowing what they need, feeding them, shooting the wolves that come after them and barking at the dogs that threaten them.
I hope he can learn not to do that and to shepherd with his heart and brain, not just his mouth.
P.S. Do you think he means that pastors should be BAMF’s? Just wondering… hahahahahaha!!!
We hear the carpet thing so often, as you point out. What’s especially frustrating about it is that Noble (and probably Furtick) doesn’t really believe it, because when churches aren’t guilty for caring too much about carpet, they’re guilty of caring too little about it.
One of the first posts I ever read from PN was this one, which mocked the facilities of churches he doesn’t like.
We make sure our kids get the very best in (1) facilities–we do not stick them in some basement with leaking pipes and wall paper from the 1970’s and tell them to “like it or else.” But rather we provide them with an atmosphere that they can actually enjoy.
He goes on to complain about how other churches let old people (gasp!) teach Sunday School.
Care too much about your carpet=you hate the lost.
Care too little about your carpet=you hate the lost.
Got it?
James — Perry never said you hated the lost because of the carpet. HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CARPET! AS USUAL, YOU TAKE EVERYTHING OUT OF CONTEXT AND MAKE THINGS UP, THATS WHAT YOU ARE GOOD AT – THE ONLY THING!! WAYYY TO MANY CHURCHES SPEND MORE MONEY AND TIME ON SUITS FOR THEIR FREAKIN DEACON BOARD THAN THEY DO FOR THEIR KIDS AND TEEN MINISTRY AND THAT IS DEAD WRONG!! DEACONS ARENT THE FUTURE…KIDS AND TEENS ARE. PERIOD. CHURCHES NEED TO STOP SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY ON FLOWERS PUT ON DEAD WIDOWS GRAVES AND MORE ON EVANGELSIM AND OUTREACH!!!!!!!!
Anthony,
Calm down. Shouting will get you no where here.
Anthony, if you need to see the magic word from PN, here it is:
From the earlier pipes and wallpaper quote, who appears to care more about carpet? Noble or the anonymous church he’s criticizing?
Also, what do you have against deacons? They’re specifically called by God as an essential part of church function and government–much more than a youth group. Shouldn’t they have priority?
Oh, and where’s the church that pays for their suits?
Deacons are not important–but keep telling yourself that.
Anthony – you mention suits, and the imaginary idea that a church buys them for their deacons. The odd thing is, Furtick spends more on clothes than ANYONE I know. In fact according to an interview he did with the Charlotte Observer (re-posted here: http://hollyfurtick.typepad.com/the_preachers_wife/2009/01/style-file.html )
Furtick spend more on one pair of Jeans than most people would spend on a suit. And yes, his wardrobe is 100% funded by the church.
Anthony is obviously a student of Perry and Stephen (and all other modern, hip, “relevant” “pastors”. Everything he knows about God and church, he learned from the masters-Noble, Furtick, et al. Seems like maybe Anthony needs to sit down and read his Bible (and NOT The Message) and see if what the actual Word of God really says agrees with the Nobles and Furticks of the world.
Anthony,
I offer you 1 Timothy 3:10,13
It doesn’t matter what I tell myself. It mainly matters what God tells myself.
Folks,
Any church that abandons an eldership that is responsible for the spiritual growth of their gathering of christians, and deacons who are responsible for serving the needs of the gathering, losses something very significant and meaningful in the life of the church. I mean, all this stuff is right out of the bible. And as BCoop so eloquently said at one event, “Do you believe the ##$@@@% Bible”?
Anthony,
For your obvious low opinion of deacons suggests something fundamentally skewed in your thinking. Maybe you had bad experiences in the past with deacons, but my experiences as a deacon confirm 1 Timothy 3 in my life. And perhaps you don’t think that laying flowers on a dead widow’s grave is very important, but be assured, when the day comes that you loose someone you love, you will appreciate the thought that goes into the flowers. Lastly, why the hate speech towards old folks? You and PN will be old one day too. You want to argue and debate, that’s fine. There is no reason for you to insult people because of their age, or deacons because they are deacons, or churches because they put flowers on the graves of deceased family members. Remind me not to call you when I need grief counseling.
Speaking of wasting money:
Anthony,
It’s not good to say something “isn’t important” that is spelled out in scripture so clearly. I’d be really careful with that one. A deacon is a servant of the church ordained by God to be so. It’s a vital role in the church. They are the heart and arms of the church body.
Sounds like all you holier than thou church goers got your ties on too tight and they are cutting off the little brain waves you have left. Jiw W…actually I grew up in churches much like I assume you attend now and my faith in God was BORING and NON-EXISTENT because they couldn’t apply biblical insights in a way I could understand it, not even in my youth groups. I now attend a church with a band (which I know you all disagree with because hymns aren’t sang and we don’t have a choir) a pastor who wears jeans and is the Godliest man I have ever met (yes guys, a suit and tie isn’t required, look that up in the scriptures!) And God forbid we don’t have a deacon board but that hasn’t stopped what God is doing because He has saved 130 people in a year and we have a average attendance of 500 in a year since our launch. So don’t tell me that there is only one way to do church. Instead of bashing and criticising churches like the one I attend, I would start looking in the mirror. BTW, all you suit and ties are just giving me more of the alreay negative image I had of you. GROW UP!
I don’t own a suit, love rock music, and don’t like most hymns. Just needed to set the record straight on that. Every assumption you made in your childish rant there was completely wrong. Maybe other assumptions you are making are wrong too. Why did you consider your old church boring?
Kids and youth NEED a relevant atmosphere for the Gospel to be heard. Like a new Believer you have to almost strategically teach them about Jesus. Kids won’t pay attention if they are locked in a room and force fed the bible but that is also a hard thing to assume or say because God is the only one who can change a person.I think that certain churches cater to certain people and my old church didn’t do that for me. I could almost predict what my pastor would say and when he would say it so I felt a complete lack of passion. I just know the church I attend now is perfect for me and I have never been on such fire for God so when I hear you all bashing churches that changed my life it kinda makes me upset. I feel like I have to defend my beliefs and I talk down to old fashioned churches because I think they have very very little passion and that is not right for me to do either. Its an endless circle
Anthony,
You wrote: “BTW, all you suit and ties are just giving me more of the alreay negative image I had of you. GROW UP!”
1) I wish you’d follow that last bit of advice and apply it to yourself.
2) I find it interesting you object to suits and ties. I thought one of the tenets of the contemporary church model: “it doesn’t matter what you wear to church.” I guess, though, what this statement really means is: “dress like us. Skip the suit. Avoid the tie. You’ll fit in better.” So, I can only conclude that you do in fact like dress codes, so long as they are up to your standards.
3) So a church is wrong to kick people out for a baseball cap, but right to enforce casual attire at church. Got it.
One final set of questions re: improper attire according to you: Would it insult you if your physician wore a suit and/or tie to work? Or your attorney? Or a Chick-fil-A manager? Or a pro or college basketball coach? Or a dead body lying in a casket?
I’m just wondering if it’s suits and ties at church that set you off like this, or if it’s suits and ties anywhere.
That’s enough for now, I’m going to go now and tie my tie in advance of tomorrow morning. One less thing to do when I wake up.
Nah I actually own shirts, ties and suits myself so that’s not it.I dressed down at a traditional church just out of spite at a Christmas Eve service and you should have seen the looks I got. Contemporary churches have NO dress code and we don’t mind if you wear a suit and tie at our church but if I attended a traditional church in anything but my sunday best God help me.So actually contemporary churches welcome anyone–no shirt, no shoes, no problem. We will also soon have a ministry for drug addicts and if a traditional church got wind of a drug addict in their church they would probably ask them to leave because of their close mindedness and that’s what it comes down too. Maybe the church should be more concerned about reaching people than not hurting their feelings. BE BOLD! Finally you all can say as sarcastically as you want about laying your suits and ties out but I’m so sure I believe you
Tommy, I assumed you wore clip ons.
Anthony, I think you revealed a great deal about your relationship with your church when you wrote, “I dressed down at a traditional church just out of spite at a Christmas Eve service and you should have seen the looks I got.”
I’m guessing that the looks you got had more to do with your spiteful attitude, which I assume you find difficult to conceal, than your clothes. How did your spitefulness prepare you for your worship of Christ that evening?
One other point: you said earlier, “Don’t tell me that there is only one way to do church.” Of course there’s only one way to do church–Jesus’ way. There’s a lot of freedom in that, but you don’t get to just make up whatever rules you like, or veto the rules you don’t like. Deacons, btw, are an important part of Jesus’ way of doing church.
Just because someone thinks its important doesn’t mean its the only way. Like I said God isn’t punishing us because we don’t have a deacon board. Enough said, wow.of course I know that Jesus is the only way to do church I just thought you all forgot that since you dog contemporary churches like Newspring and Elevation who only proclaim His name! You act like they proclaim the name of Satan or something!
Anthony, After listening to NewSpring play Highway to Hell, I would agree that they proclaim the name of Satan. I’ve listened to enough of Noble’s “sermons” that I know he doesn’t spend any time actually teaching the Bible. he spends an incredible amount of time telling stories about himself, his child, and anything else he thinks could be relevant. If he spent half as much time discussing the actual Bible as he does on his cutesy stories, he’s be a fairly good preacher. As it is, he’s nothing more than a blowhard and a braggart who throws in a couple of Bible verses once in awhile to justify his title.
Meanwhile, you have got a real chip on your shoulder, an incredible amount of self-centered pride. I think you probably really need to get alone with God and do some serious repenting. In fact, it strikes me that maybe you’ve never actually bothered to repent in the first place. Now would be a good time to do that. Get on your knees and beg for God’s forgiveness for your sinful, spiteful nature.
Dear Jim W,
You are a complete idiot. Enough said. WOW
Anthony,
Why is your spirit so spiteful and prideful? Calm down and think about what you are saying and the example you are leaving.
I do not agree with Sunday’s best and I agree our dress should be modest as the Bible proclaims. You can convey your points without rebellion. For example both of my ears are pierced which is a no no with many IFB. Several months ago, I ran into a older man handing out tracks while I was doing laundry. He came up to me and offered me a gospel track. I refused the track and told him to keep it because I know it takes money to print them. I told him that I was saved and had been a child of God for 13 years. He looked at me and said, “Well then what about the earrings?” I said, “excuse me.” I exchanged my views in love with him. Every time we see each other we chat and talk now. The way I handed his question was not with arrogance, rebellion, and being spiteful. I handed it with love and compassion. In doing so I made a friend even though he does not agree with my piercings.
There is nothing wrong with pointing out some of the problems coming from Perry Noble and Furtick. I feel that many of us here hope they read this blog and our post. I pray that Noble and Furtick repent and truly start walking after God putting more emphasis on the Bible than being relevant.
Anthony,
Yes, Jim’s response was a little unfair, but you did ask the question. I’d just say that if you play Highway to Hell in your worship, you need to at least develop a thicker skin if people don’t exactly embrace it.
You are not doing your cause much good here. Until you show some deference to the Word of God and its application to church, your participation in this discussion isn’t helpful.
Anthony… idiot? Nice. And yet you would call me the intolerant fundamentalist. And I never said a word about dress in church or carpets or anything else that you have screamed at me about. Unfair…I maybe, but none-the-less, true as demonstrated by your prideful arrogant responses to everything that has been said to to you. You are the one accusing people of being unfair, yet it is you who continues coming up with false accusations and hateful namecalling. Like I said, perhaps some time alone with God repenting of your pride will help you grow up.