Furtick slings the manure
Posted: August 5th, 2009 | Author: James Downing | Tags: Criticism, Furtick, hypocrisy | 38 Comments »Here we see Furtick throwing another attack towards the Church:
Some churches are like mushroom farms: the people are kept in the dark and fed manure.
Here again we see that Furtick’s rules for bashing churches only applies to Elevation and his personal friends. He can say preachers are feeding their people manure all he likes, but remember, if we don’t personally know someone, we can only pray for them…or just shut up all together.
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You just cannot make this stuff up!
I wonder what Furtick is feeding his flock because it’s sure not bible study?
What churches? Come on SF, man up and name names!
Thats right, Downing. He can call others out, but they can’t return the favor. That would be like calling out God Himself.
Just sent SF a Tweet asking for examples and names of the churches. I’m wondering if I will get a reply. We shall see.
http://twitter.com/davidjhorn
This might be interesting…
I don’t know his twitter policy, but it is probably the same as his email policy. He personally reads no email until it is filtered by his staff. Anything they think he’d preceive as negative, he is not allowed to view.
It’s funny that all the SF comments come up about him hating Bible study, but yet I saw that him & his staff are reading through the Bible in 90 days? I’m surprised no one here has talked about that yet since you all follow him so closely. Maybe you find something wrong with that as well? I would say they are not against the Bible, even if you don’t agree with his methods. Maybe he doesn’t believe in lots of programs, but reading the living Word of God that much each day has got to change you. I could gain from being in the Word that much each day.
http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=2712
Follow this link to see for yourself where Furtick slams people who want bible study. He said it…not me.
I saw their B90X gimmick, and while I thought it was cute, I’m not sure how much you could absorb reading through the Bible that quickly.
I watched that clip, if you want to watch it just in that context, then yes, that’s what it says…except for the part at the end where he says, “let’s see what God’s Word has to say about it…” I don’t go to his church, and don’t care to, but I wouldn’t want to be affiliated here either, where you spend your time bashing other people in ministry…very much the same thing you are accusing him of. But I”m sure you have a quick witted response with a scripture taken out of historical/biblical context to back up what you do here, just like Furtick would too.
And as far as absorbing the Bible reading it that quickly, that’s not really your place to say what God will show people when they are in His Word-whether it be 1 verse or 20 chapters-even if God reveals ONE thing, at least that’s better than not being in the Bible at all. I think it’s great to require his staff to read the entire Bible-who knows what that will transform in them? Some church staff barely crack open their Bible in months. But since you have it out for him already, I would expect you to disagree.
I am a Christ Follower, not a man (whether that be here, or Furtick) follower or a people basher. I hope that is your goal as well. God loves Furtick as much as he loves you.
CF, so you can come here and bash me, while knowing very little about me, but I can’t comment on clips that this guy puts on the internet himself?
As far as the Bible reading thing, that’s great. I’ve been reading it for the past 15 years.
No doubt God loves Furtick. But does that make Furtick beyond questioning?
That’s funny, I don’t remember (and I’m reading back what I wrote) bashing you at all, just commenting. Just because I don’t agree doesn’t mean I’m bashing, and I didn’t do anything with an intentional poking fun or sarcastic attitude, just stating from another view point, I am not on either side…but as I can quickly see here, there is an extremely defensive approach, so I will not be reading or commenting anymore. Sad, I am just trying to represent Christ the best I know how, but that is not the forum here I guess.
And I never meant (or said, again, reading back at what I wrote) you couldn’t question him, question away, I stated that I do not care for his church or style. It’s just the tone of the way things are talked about here that I don’t agree with, which is why I wouldn’t want to be affiliated here, I wouldn’t feel Godly in my approach, but that’s just MY personal conviction through the Word. I am not “bashing” you, just disagreeing.
And I know you won’t say you are bashing Furtick either, but reading back at the posts and other comments, there is a very sarcastic and poking fun undertone, but obviously I am not a regular here, so maybe I am misunderstanding the tone, although it seems fairly obvious. I am not making a ministry out of disagreeing with others ministries, I was pointing out something i found interesting in my first comment, which is obviously not welcomed (or at least welcomed w/ defensiveness, not healthy conversation) when it doesn’t line up with what you believe or see.
And no, I don’t know much about you, only what you write on the internet, just like the context you “know” Furtick. But I wouldn’t claim to know your heart and know you at all just based on that. That’s just me…
Blessings to you
James Downing,
So reading through the Bible in 90 days is a gimmick?
I wonder if you’d say the same thing if it was someone besides Furtick doing the reading.
“B90X is a revolutionary system of intense, truth-absorbing,brain-busting Bible reading that will transform yourunderstanding of Scripture from intro to nitro in just 90 days!Your personal trainer,Ruach “The Breath” Yahweh, will drag you through the most intense infusion of His vision that you have ever experienced and you won’t believe the results!”
http://www.stevenfurtick.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/B90X.pdf
JT – If it was written like that, yes, I would still think it was a gimmick.
Great. A promo for bible study that sounds like a car ad.
Like Downing, I’ve been slogging through the Bible almost my entire life. I wish had known about this 90 day program sooner, I could have saved alot of time to reach the “nitro” understanding stage.
Now that I’ve read Furtick’s explanation of his 90 day Bible reading, I think I see your point, Downing.
Because I’d hate for people to get excited about reading the Bible or for church staff to have a little bit of fun introducing an intensive Bible-reading program to their congregation.
Yikes!
JT,
I just think true study should not be reading the Bible in 90 days. We should be open to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us even if that teaching locks us in one book for 90 days. I have been in Col for far longer than 90 days and I have grown in God’s grace by this little book
I just do not like any speed reading programs when it comes to God’s Word because it rushes study.
IMO from what I have seen/read Furtick is hostile towards people like me who like digging deep in the Word.
PS- No reply from Furtick
Jt. I didn’t even say anything bad about the Bible speed reading. I said it was a GIMMICK, and then I showed you that it is. Furtick has no problem with saying he employs gimmicks, so I’m not sure why you do.
James Downing,
You previously said, “I saw their B90X gimmick, and while I thought it was cute, I’m not sure how much you could absorb reading through the Bible that quickly.”
Now you say, “I didn’t even say anything bad about the Bible speed reading.”
Which is it?
All I’m trying to do is point out that just because you have some disagreements with a pastor or church doesn’t mean you should discourage people from taking up the challenge to read their Bible in 90 days. Remember that little thing about the baby and the bathwater?
I certainly am all for being in the word regularly. I would not discourage that of anybody. Bible study should be a habit that goes an entire lifetime. My concern is any language that promotes an unrealistic expectation, as in “transform your understanding of scripture from intro to nitro” and “you will not believe the results”, and all this in just 90 days?
Just what is meant by “nitro” understanding of the bible? If it can’t be defined how does one know he or she has reached “nitro” understanding? And if the “nitro” stage can be reached in 90 days, what would we call a persons biblical understanding, say after 6 months in a similar program? “Nuclear”?
The bible study is vital and necessary for transformational living. The promotional language is ridiculous and unnecessary.
The thing that I hate about that kind of promotion is the unnecessary burden you feel to “be jacked up!” after the Bible study, or the burden to have changed drastically after the Bible study. What if you still feel the same afterwatds and don’t grow as much as they promised? Do you believe them the next time the promote a Bible study that way? If you don’t get jacked up or grow like they want you either stop trusting them or feel really guilty. Both are not good.
A good teacher and Bible Study don’t need hype. They are their own hype. A good teacher brings people. hype, more often then not just disappoints. Advertisement like that makes a lot of people in this generation wary of what they might be getting into by participating in this bible study. Plus it just sounds really cheesy. Nitro? seriously? What is this a bible study at the drag strip? Rev yer engines fer God! yeehaw!!
1) The introduction to this Bible reading plan is obviously a parody of hyped workout programs. It’s supposed to be cheesy. If you don’t like the shtick (and I don’t), look past it.
2) I think it’s great that they are challenging their church to read the Bible in 90 days. For those of you who criticize this method as too fast- how do you know? Maybe people are taking their time and spending hours of their day reading God’s word. And if they are speed-reading, so what? Is there really no profit in reading the Bible fast (especially for new believers who may not yet see the ‘big picture’)?
It’s not just looking past the shtick and cheesiness, as if this is the only issue. The issue is setting up expectations and making distinctions that would suggest the ones doing this program would be somehow superior spiritually to the ones who choose not to.
It plays out like this: What do you mean you don’t want nitro understanding of the bible? You must not be spiritual minded. Human nature being what it is, this will happen, if not so already. I have seen this too many times before in many churches trying to support their program of the month.
Paul states that Christ’s love compels us. If we are compelled by any other motivation, then we are not being properly motivated. Like MW suggests, Christ doesn’t need hype.
I have to start with full disclosure.
Steven Furtick is a friend of mine. To be equally fair I also have the honor of serving as a Pastor at a church that I am sure the writers and readers of this blog would disect like a frog in 9th grade biology. So with this being said, I hope that we can have a discourse that is honoring to God even in spite of our varying opinions.
To start, I think that some of the critique that you guys throw at some of my friends is to be understood. You don’t actually know them and by the very nature of their very charismatic personalities they are lightening rods for “sound bites”. Soundbites seem to be the snack of choice for your rather carniverous readers and thus you provide them with a steady diet. I get that to some extent, but then I am reminded of the Bible and the principles that Jesus taught and it changes our diet a little. There is the principle that I wish I could see you guys live that I believe what honor God.
“If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” Romans 12:18
We disagree with each other on a ton of methods. Maybe even some theology. But I honestly think that you are people who love God and want to see more people in the kingdom than not. I personally know without a shadow of a doubt that so do Steven and Perry.
You will probably not change my mind and I am pretty sure I will not change yours. But what if we could live at peace with one another? Not question each others motives and not disect every word that people you disagree with says. But instead “agree to disagree” and then applaud the things that we find in each other that bring honor and glory to Jesus?
It could be better.
It surely could not be worse.
I know that you will may say that you are calling out “false teachers” and I guess if you truly believe that we are done. If you think that we are false teachers you have an obligation to take us down and I hope you don’t stop.
But if you consider them to be followers of Christ, should’nt we live the Bible you and I both love.
I know that Jesus would rather see that. I sure would too.
I am sure I will have lots of darts thrown at me for this comment, but I have read from afar with a sick stomach at watching the body of Christ eat it’s own for too long.
Shawn Wood
Teaching Pastor
Seacoast Church
I am enjoying MW 2.0. Keep it up.
JT, As far as I can see, no one is against reading the Bible or saying that it doesn’t have value. The point is that speed reading does not constitute Bible study (remember, it was CF who first told us about B90X as a positive example of how Furtick does encourage Bible study). Paul told Timothy to study, not just to read.
Shawn, did you see your friend’s little Kumbaya performance? He was positively apoplectic (and not for the first time) at the idea of non-Elevation churches doing Bible studies. That’s what building the kingdom and living peaceably looks like?
Shawn,
Thanks for your comments. I don’t particularly see this blog as anti NS or Elevation, but we do key in on statements that Noble, Furtick, and Cooper (to some extent) have said and draw broad applications and implications from them, as it relates to church, media and culture. In this particular case, I observed that the B90X promo was ridiculous and unnecessary. I suggested in broad terms that making promos like this leads to false motivations, as Paul said, Christ’s love compels us. I and others have raised a question. Does Christ need this kind of hype? And ultimately, what motivates us to do good things?
You mentioned soundbites and here is one for your digestion:
“Some churches are like mushroom farms: the people are kept in the dark and fed manure.”
This is from your friend. Please tell me what is relevant, useful and encouraging about a statement like this in light of Romans 12:18, which you referenced in your post. And even if the statement were true, why is it even your friend’s concern? Does he not have enough to do at his own church?
I wish you the best and hope that God continues to bless your ministry at Seacoast. Just be aware that with humans, there are always different ways of seeing things. The people you minister to are not always going to agree, and peace does not come from making people acquiesce to points of view that they cannot support.
Shawn,
Thanks for your insight. You make the points that I’ve been trying to make for months.
From what I hear, Seacoast Church is doing amazing works for God’s kingdom. I pray the Lord will continue to use you for His glory.
KeithO said, “I don’t particularly see this blog as anti NS or Elevation”
Riiiiiight.
Keitho—how is this not a blog that bashes elevation or Newspring?? That’s the ONLY reason this site exists!
JT and Anthony,
Sorry you feel that way guys. I think Duncan can better address the “only” purpose of this blog, and I’ll leave that to him. But to me, the senior pastors at NS and Elevation convey some very powerful ideas, with significant implications. As such, they need to be right! By your comments you suggest to me that you think these ideas cannot (or at best should not) be challenged. You want to defend NS and Elevation, that’s your priviledge. I would rather you comment on how Furtick’s “soundbite” about other churches would be appropriate under any circumstance and how this comment builds the Kingdom (back to Shawn’s Romans 12:18 reference).
I would also like your feedback on my assertions about promos for bible study that sound like a car ad, sets up unrealistic expectations (“nitro” bible understanding in just 90 days), and puts people on a guilt trip and why does Jesus need this kind of hype to begin with?
KeithO,
I in no way believe that some pastors are above being challenged. I’ve been consistently saying this since I first commented here on PP.
My concern is that the way this blog normally “challenges” them isn’t the way it should be done (or by the people who should be doing it).
JT,
“Some” pastors? Why not all? They are all human.
JT – I’m fine with reading the bible as fast as you want to, though I don’t think it’s the most beneficial method. My irritation more comes in that Furtick has to make up a crazy cool gimmick, complete with graphics and slogans, for something as basic and fundamental as bible reading. Why couldn’t he just say to his staff, “let’s read this passage and discuss it later…”? Why the hype, and self congratulatory promotion?
Sean – Thanks for commenting. You ask for us to live in peace, and agree to disagree…What that usually means is that I have to shut up, but they keep doing the exact same thing they’ve been doing. I don’t think Furtick and Noble are false teachers, but I do have some major problems with the way they do church. Some of these soundbytes are just a way to open up a discussion to allow people to think about larger issues. If you are sincerely open to dialogue, I think we could have a discussion that could be quite beneficial to the kingdom. You down for it?
I just looked up that B90X plan. I think I’m going to give it a go. I obviously won’t be able to “study” like I’d like, but I’m curious to see how God uses it.
Josh – Cool. Let us know the reults. If you develop a spiritual six-pack, post before and after pics.
JT – As far as the staff spending hours on reading per day – Here is what Elevation’s creative pastor had to say about it http://twitter.com/larryhubatka/status/3217947583
“B90X to close out the night…for as long as I can keep my eyes open…”
KeithO- When I said “I in no way believe that some pastors are above being challenged,” I was trying to make it clear that I didn’t have a dualistic view of pastors, wherein most can be questioned, but the Nole’s and Furticks of the world are above that. I guess my attempt to be clear had the opposite affect.
Downing,
You said, “Why couldn’t he just say to his staff, “let’s read this passage and discuss it later…”?
Frankly, I don’t care how he introduces a Bible-reading program, as long it isn’t sin.
My question remains, why can’t we see past these little things and rejoice that people are reading God’s word?
Why don’t you rejoice that I’m reading God’s word?
I’m fine with them reading the Bible, but the promotion is silly and completely unecessary.
JT,
It did, but thanks for clarifying. Hope your day is going well.
JT,
You said, “My question remains, why can’t we see past these little things”… my response is I don’t see unclear, hyperbolic language as being a little thing. In this case, it potentially sets up unrealistic expectations (what exactly is nitro? Why not nuclear instead?), and a guilt trip for those not inclined to participate. Jesus discussion about letting our yes be yes comes immediately to mind.
If we get past these issues, then the promo is funny and catchy. Useless and meaningless (like a Kia commercial), but catchy all the same.