How Perry Noble’s legalism failed Gary Lamb
Posted: June 9th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Lamb, Leadership, Noble | 77 Comments »The Gary Lamb story will happen again, mainly because the men who think they’re learning lessons from this and other failings are clutching at solutions that will ultimately fail them.
A few observations:
- Structures aren’t the same as sanctification. Perry Noble has preached IN CAPITAL LETTERS and exclamation marks to his fellow ministers about how to avoid sexual failings.
Call me legalistic…but I am a FREAK about particular personal boundaries…such as…
- I do not ride in a car alone with a woman other than my wife!
- I will not be on an elevator alone with another woman. (I have literally gotten off on a floor that was not my destination in order to keep this value.)
- I will not counsel a woman alone.
- I will not share a meal in a restaurant with a woman with it being just the two of us…under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES! EVER! (And PLEASE don’t hand me that crap about how it is “business!”)
We’ve seen just how well Noble’s legalism worked for one of his two primary proteges. There is nothing wrong with establishing procedures for avoiding trouble, but you can’t rely on them to protect you from a corrupt heart.
- Women aren’t wicked. Perry Noble’s crass advice to pastors seems premised on the assumption that women are more infectious than the swine flu and must be avoided at all costs.
My advice…take RADICAL steps. Make a committment to NEVER be alone with a woman! EVER…under ANY circumstances.
There’s a difference between being alone with a woman and having sex with her that most of us have no problem recognizing. One will happen often and be outside your control; the other shouldn’t happen at all and is within your control. The refusal to apologize to Elena or her husband seems to be consistent with this view of women as immoral agents who are on the prowl to bring down otherwise good men.
The problem is not women; it’s men who can’t control themselves around women.
- Self control is seriously compromised. Noble and Lamb have been subjects of criticism on this blog in the past for their gratuitous lack of self control. In discussing their inability to control their tongue, I asked “How can either of these men credibly teach people about purity, sobriety or self control?” The answer, it turns out, is that they can’t. They can’t even teach themselves about it. Perry Noble’s Twitter entries are a constant reminder of his lack of self control or self denial. He is a man of big appetites who relishes in publicly satisfying them. A few weeks ago he made a big deal about driving down to Atlanta just for lunch.
I am seriously thinking about driving to ATL tomorrow just to have lunch @ Fogo!!! It’s just a thought…am I crazy? Anyone wanna go?
He ended up taking at least two of his staff members. Here’s another example:
Here is a HUGE surprise…I am hungry…really desire to consume large amounts of food!!!
It goes on and on.
Understand my point. It’s not a sin to eat; it is a sin to lack temperance when it comes to eating. When you act like a three year old expecting your loudly announced needs to be satisfied whenever you have them, why would you expect to have developed the discipline to deny yourself when you do get some alone time with a willing woman? These men have few obvious self-control muscles.
There is wisdom in setting guidelines to help reduce temptations. Perry Noble’s counseling of Lamb didn’t help him because it didn’t deal with his selfish and childish heart. A bad heart will always overcome good rules.
Similar Posts:
- Chemistry at work
- What’s next for Gary Lamb?
- A pastor’s lament
- Leaders are sooo special, don’t you know?
- A priceless pair of proclamations from Perry’s preaching
Thank you so much for #2!!
If the Pastors at my Church practiced these rules it would make my job impossible to do. I would have to drag a chaperon around with me every time I went into a Pastor’s office to work on/fix their computer.
I have read those ‘rules’ before and was shocked at how chauvinistic they were. How are women supposed to serve in any meaningful capacity if the men in Pastoral leadership view and treat them like evil temptresses?
It is worthwhile to be careful in all aspects of life and to understand your own limitations. But holy Toledo, can these guys really not be in the same room alone with a woman and not experience evil thoughts???
I am not claiming that there are no ‘evil temptresses’ out there – certainly there are. But they are in a small minority. This kind of reactionary legalism is pandering to the lowest common denominator.
I do not avoid men because years ago I was sexually harassed in the work place. Doing so would be losing faith in people in general, and that’s not something I’m willing to do.
God Bless you, and again – thank you.
I’m just curious, but are we certian that Gary has the same structure as Perry in preventing this from happening? I agree completely with having guidelines and follow them myself, but, Perry cannot fix Gary’s bad heart, only God can do that because every human has a bad, sinful heart (Genesis 8:21). So Perry can try all he wants but ultimately only God has the power to really change anything.
I have heard that Gary did not have a close day-to-day accountablility partner, someone who has complete access to his life and can ask the tough questions. He did have the board of Elders/Overseers as accountablility, but, I believe you need to have someone who will see you at least every other day, but has access to you whenever.
Seriously, no list of this or that or accountability partner will solve anything. As a pastor of 14 years I know that I am accountable to God for everything I say, do, think and so on.
It’s seriously a question of spiritual and moral integrity of which Gary Lamb has none. Yes we all sin, we all fail, we all let people down. That comes with being human beings.
But every thing we do in life is a choice.
Gary Lamb chose, as did his personal assistant to have an affair, to commit adultery. No one twisted their arm, no one held a gun to their head, they both chose to do this of their own free will.
God will forgive and heal them and their families if they are willing.
Lamb’s problems go so much deeper than adultery. Gary is right, he is not qualified for ministry. Not just because of an affair, but because of his attitude and his heart and his ego.
The church is about Jesus Christ. It’s about God and making Him famous.
It’s not about us, never has been, never will be.
I’ve been saying this all day but now more than ever we need people of integrity in the church.
I just re-read and saw where Noble says he will not counsel a woman alone. Noble is obviously not a counselor. I am not just an ordained Pastor, I am also a licensed mental health therapist. There are so many ethical issues in counseling and you simple can not counsel an individual with others present. This would violate HIPPA laws and privacy issues and so on.
Perhaps Perry Noble himself has issues where he knows he can’t be alone with another woman.
I’ve been alone with women who were not my wife and guess what? Nothing happened other than business. Most of my supervisors in mental health have been women and I’ve had to meet with them one on one.
I’ve counseled women one on one. I’ve counseled young girls and teen girls one on one. And Guess what, I’ve never had one single complaint and never had one single accusation made against me. Why? Because I have integrity and I can be trusted.
I 100% agree with Perry on this one. No these rules don’t address your heart but they are simply smart things for a married man to do. I do these things not only for my benefit but out of respect for my wife. Even if these meetings are completely innocent they can appear otherwise. As far as temptation goes I like the old addage “Don’t start nothin and there won’t be nothin”.
You are totally over analyzing Perry’s posts. He was simply sharing something that he enjoys doing. If he did it on a daily basis it would be different. He just happens to like to twitter about where he eats.If you really new anything about him you would realize that he has a rigorous plan to stay physically fit. At one point in his life Perry was tremendously overweight but changed his lifestyle and eating habits to overcome it. That doesn’t sound like a guy that lacks temperance to me.
RevScottie
What is the solution then? You have identified the problem and have identified that Perry Nobles method of operation does not work. So what is your solution? What should Gary have done? I certainly hold pastors to a higher standard but also recognize that they are human and are going to sin just like the rest of us. I, in know way, excuse his actions but would just like to know your solution.
Why can we not learn from this? I have. If it can happen to someone that is more conscious of avoiding these situations than I am, it can definitely happen to me.
What is your justification for suggesting that a nice (big) meal is seriously compromising self control? That’s a very broad brush to paint with, especially for someone (Perry) who seems extremely dedicated to his health. Is comparing one pastors affair to another pastors big meal even a fair argument?
Someone asked what should Gary have done? That’s easy to answer. Gary should never have had an affair.
It’s a matter of choice to be honest. He chose, she chose to have an affair while they were both married to other people.
I can be in a room with other women and not have any impure thoughts or motives, why? Because I don’t view women as sex objects.
When my wife and I go back home I usually end up alone with a room full of women.
The issue is integrity, the issue is sin. Gary should have chose not to sin against his God, against his wife, against this other woman.
He chose to give in to the lust of the eyes and flesh. He chose to have sex with a woman who was not his wife.
If Gary Lamb and Perry Noble can not be alone with another woman than neither one of them belong in ministry.
14 years of being a pastor and I’ve never had a single problem and I’ve been alone with many women. It’s called integrity, it’s called trust, it’s called choosing to be moral and follow God’s word.
In ministry we are here to minister to and serve people, not sleep with them.
It is not a matter of IF you can be alone with a women but an issue of SHOULD you? I have no problem with self control but I also realize that I can not afford the appearance of impropriety either. I know not every woman is an evil temptress waiting to devour me but does that keep others from questioning the situation? As far as counseling goes it can be done in private but in a room with a window where there is no question that integrity is being maintained. Before everybody goes and beats up Perry over this he is simply following the same set of rules that Billy Graham set forth decades ago. I guess from Pastor Brian’s comments above Billy doesn’t belong in ministry either.
Wow. I am beyond amazed at some of the comments above. As the wife of someone in ministry, I ABSOLUTELY 100% SUPPORT my husband’s choice to follow most of these same “guidelines” (so to speak) involving women.
It’s not about “not being able to control your thoughts”…and Pastor Brian, I truly hope that you never find yourself in a situation like this…but I also know that the first step down this road is thinking “it can never happen to me”.
What it IS about is a commitment to do everything you can to not allow Satan to tempt you with something that can bring you down.
Would you seriously sit an alcoholic at a bar stool, with a drink in front of them and then say it’s all about not choosing to sin? Of course not! The advice would be to stay out of the bar…away from the drink…why is this any different?
P.S. To CindyK…
I’m not a pastor and work in the secular world. I try to avoid being alone with a woman other than my wife as well. Many of the sales people that call on me are women and invite me to lunch. I never go if it’s the two of us. It not only keeps me from the unthinkable, IT PROTECTS ME FROM THE PERCEPTION THAT I’M DOING SOMETHING WRONG. I would hate for one of my friends to tell me that they saw my wife eating lunch, alone, with another man so I would never want something to report that to my wife. It’s an easy step to remove any possible doubt. In my case it is in NO way a chauvanistic move or a signal that women are wicked. My opinion is that it’s the responsible thing to do, thats all.
I’ve sit back and read for the past few days. I have read blogs I have never read before. I read Perry Noble talk about how much food he can eat, and if you follow his posts closely, he is always asking for food or items. Gary Lamb was wrong. But there is nothing in this world that will make him or any of the rest of us perfect. Quit trying. It’s BS. Not all women are alike. And I too feel that the girl involved here needs an apology. From Gary, from the church and from his “sacred” buddies. They are all out to protect Gary and because he was the pastor doesn’t mean he was innocent. She was apart of this too and it appears that she has been swept under the rug.
Guess who’s back!!
I see that you guys are hitting a tender subject for me, I’ve been trying to get perry to fail in this area for along time. The barriers are so strong I can’t make his wife think he is cheating or can’t even get a rumor started that he’s not faithfull. It’s even effected a bunch of “newspringer” married couples to go by these standards. What kind of church is it when there is no way to start a rumor about a cheating preacher. Come on my peeps, I need all the help I can get. I need to throw some temptation on this man or make his wife think she can not trust him. His church members need somthing else to talk about and take their eyes off u know who. U know, the J man.
Can u hook a devil up?
Satan
This is to Brian. I don’t think not being able to be alone with a woman disqualifies Perry or Gary from being in Ministry. Paul says, “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature”.
I don’t know what church you pastor, but you seem like a self-righteous person, and you need to realize that you are a sinner and immune to sexual immortality like any other person. I don’t care how much integrity you have…do you think Paul had integrity?
Whoever wrote “I’ve been trying to get perry to fail in this area for along time. The barriers are so strong I can’t make his wife think he is cheating or can’t even get a rumor started that he’s not faithfull.”
How foolish are you? Did you not learn anything from GLamb?
BTW, no more “Satan” posts. Speak for yourself.
I personally loved the “Satan” post. Don’t you get it??? That’s exactly what “the perception of wrong doing” does. And that’s exactly why people like Perry and MANY MANY MANY other pastor’s put those same safeguards in place. Not just to “control themselves”, but to keep Satan from gaining a stronghold by even STARTING A RUMOR!
Once again…..gossiping gets everyone in trouble. Does it make you feel better to talk about others short comings?
Pastor Brian….this is not to discount the severity of what happened at Revolution Church, only to make you think….. You said “he slept with his assisstant” …you are assuming this happened, right?
SO all affairs mean you sleep with someone…Id look closely at what RUMORS you start on this hideous gossip site you all take part in. Just becasue someone has an affair doesnt mean they slept together… there have been many instances where this hasnt happened….Hmmmmm what a concept!
VML,
In your spare time do you moonlight as Bill Clinton’s attorney? The meaning of is, and all that.
Lamb admitted to a physical relationship with Elena. We’re not assuming he was talking about shaking her hand; neither is his wife.
No kidding….you are still gossiping….assuming….talking about other’s lives you have no clue about is gossiping – Oh and i didnt know you knew his wife personally she must give you all your info, huh? Since you know what she thinks….
Hey Brian, were you a member of Revolution? Do you know Gary Lamb or Elena?
VML, you appear to have picked up Seth’s shovel.
Use it well.
very wise man you think you are Duncan…..
I’m glad this site mkes you feel better about yourself. Enjoy!
TO VML, If you would read Gary’s letter on his blog he admitted to having an emotional AND physical affair with his assistant. No rumors. Straight from the horses mouth.
I am not self righteous in the least. I’ve said time and again, we all sin, we all fail, we all make mistakes. There is a HUGE difference in me saying a cuss word in the heat of them moment and in making a conscious choice to have an affair which I choose never to do.
I’ve been a pastor for 14 years and sexual immorality has never been an issue for me, not in the least. Why? Because I don’t lust after women. Because I am their pastor and sometimes their boss and that is a serious ethics violation. Because I hold myself to absolute standards from the word of God. Because I believe adultery is a selfish sin, but a sin none the less. Because I don’t want to let God down or let down those He has entrusted to my care as a shepherd. Because I don’t want to fail my family nor break the covenant relationship between myself, my wife and God. A three strand cord is not easily broken.
My office does indeed have glass in the door so anyone could see that nothing is going on that shouldn’t be. When it didn’t, the door remained open. As a congregation we’ve went all out to protect ourselves and our leaders.
I believe that when we honor God with everything we have that He will protect us.
I’ve been at this 14 years, I must be doing something right for nothing to have ever happen…oh yeah I am, I’m following God and His word.
Paul’s words that someone quoted have nothing to do with being alone with a woman and I happen to know for a fact that Billy Graham did a one on one interview with Gloria Gaither, but I’ve never seen Billy say any such thing either.
In Ministry you have to deal with people and people want to tell their pastors all sorts of things in private.
If I am going to counsel a woman one on one, I inform at least two people on my leadership team, I do not tell them who, just that it is a female.
I make sure that someone “just so happens” to walk by the office.
I keep the session to a clinical hour which is 45 minutes.
I put a desk between me and the woman or sit on the opposite side of the room.
I have zero problem doing this in public, that gives you lots of witnesses.
I have female friends we hang out, alone. Nothing happens because we choose to honor God.
But some people would rather defend the man than admit he chose to sin.
For those who want it straight from the “horse”
http://www.garylamb.org/2009/06/07/hardest-post-ive-ever-written/
Gary’s blog post where he admits to a physical affair.
Yes, but, does it say what kind of physical affair? nope, it could be sex, it could be just kissing and holding hands and what not, we dont know b/c they did not give us the details. just thought i would point that out.
Thanks, Seth. That made me laugh out loud.
Well, Brian…it appears that you too have a “legalistic safeguards” in place…congrats.
And Duncan…it appears that you are CHOOSING TO SIN…choosing to gossip. I think YOU are the one who owes some apologies…first to GOD!
Pastor Brian
I will say all day that Gary Lamb sinned, anyone who would say otherwise does not know the scriptures, what I am against is the attack on Perry’s method of protecting himself. It works for him, each man, each person is different, some need certain barriers and others dont. Do you not have quidelines that you follow? I believe you do, you just listed them, I don’t see how your list varies from Perry’s, you both are protecting yourself in some way, his may be more strict, but its the same concept. As for Perry not being able to counsel a women one-on-one, it is not his gift. He does not have a gift of counseling, I know this because he has said it many times, so I don’t expect him to counsel anyone, that is what his care staff is for. But, if you think about it, both of you have set guidelines you follow, yes, the methods vary, yes, one is more extreme than the other, but the end goal is still the same, so what is the problem here? Like i have said before, we don’t know that Gary Lamb has the same rules set forth that Perry does, so to say that “Perry’s legalism” has failed one of his pastors I think may not be correct.
Duncan,
I had read, either this post, another post, somewhere, that someone was talking about this being gossip and got from it that it was b/c someone said they had slept together, my intent was to inform that yes, it said physical, yes wee can assume that means sex, but, it does not always mean that, there are other physical things 2 people can do. But, and I will say this, the follow statement, which you said, is partly true.
“The Gary Lamb story will happen again, mainly because the men who think they’re learning lessons from this and other failings are clutching at solutions that will ultimately fail them.”
The incorrect part is the second half. People, wait, Pastors, have always fallen. Look throughout the news, every couple of years this happens and why? It is not always because the method Perry uses doesn’t work, why did the catholic priests fail? Why did Ted haggard fail? As we are imperfect sinful people, we will always fail, in the future, pastors will fail, it is bound to happen, it is human nature. Some take steps to guard against it and some dont, some may need tougher steps than others. But it is human nature.
To all
I agree with the steps Perry takes, until his steps don’t work, ie he falls, I support them, Pastor Brian, for you, your methods work, and I am extremely happy that they do. I extremely happy for people who know their limits and I hold extreme respect for whoever puts a system of some kind into effect. But, everyone is different, and if you know the level of protect and the rules/steps you need to take to protect yourself.
Duncan,
Just a prediction here, but I bet we see a post on gossip. Something tells me we will, unless these guys are correct.
I think you’ll be disappointed. I don’t think most readers are confused about the difference between gossip and news.
I agree with Seth….
Yes, let’s see it it straight from the horses mouth – physical affair….. Your assumption = sleeping together….that’s a far cry from what the words say isn’t it? Have you checked out the word “physical” in the dictionary…. that leave a VERY broad range my friend!
It really isn’t about what really happened between them. It’s about you thinking you know what’s going on. You have no clue – you have assumptions. Those assumptions that become gossip. Gossip only makes it worse for those who are doing the gossiping! You can’t focus on making your life meaningful if you are spening all your time worrying about everyone else.
Post that one next…Im sure you’ll get many hits…
Here’s what has happened:
1) Gary Lamb had an affair.
2) He left (or was told to leave) his church.
3) He admitted he was wrong.
4) Nobody has excused his behavior (that I’ve seen).
Every decent pastor has rules and procedures in place to guard against sexual immorality. Noble obviously has his own rules. Pastor Brian has shared his, too. I think both sets of guidelines seem reasonable.
JDunc – You are assuming that Lamb followed Noble’s advice. I think that it’s pretty clear that he didn’t. It’s kind of hard to have an affair if you are never alone with someone.
JDunc-
You said, “BTW, no more “Satan” posts. Speak for yourself.”
I guess C.S. Lewis wouldn’t be a welcome commenter on your blog.
But just in case it really was Satan making those comments, you probably made the right decision in banning him.
This is back at Brian. The bible says that if you look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery. Over the past 14 years have you ever intentionally looked at a woman lustfully. Answer, probably yes. Did you step down as the pastor of your church. Probably not.
I am a aware the Paul reference did not have anything to do with being alone with a woman. If you read my post you would have understood I was saying we as human beings have sinful nature, and we do what we do not want to do sometimes. As a result, a man can be alone in a room with a woman, and he may not want to have an affair. However, we do know that that the enemy is out seeking those who he can devour. So a man being alone with a woman puts in him a vulnerable place to be attacked. So not being alone with a woman EVER is excellent advice!!!!!!!!
Duncan, I believe YOU have confused the difference between gossip and news. It has been said, how do you know if you are gossiping? If you aren’t part of the problem or aren’t part of the solution and you are talking about it…you are gossiping.
Just the mere fact that you are speculating about apologies that have or haven’t occured, the heart of those involved, or anything else for that matter means you are GOSSIPING!!!!
Yes, Thank you Jake….. This seems to be a difficult concept for Duncan to grasp today.
And Duncan…..I love to read some of the things you have to say – I just so happen to disagree with you on this topic.
I like this blog. I like the truth. I have dedicated my entire adult life to serving in the local church and my entire life to Christ. It does indeed bother me when a man can commit adultery and feel he owes no apology to the woman involved nor to her family.
I’m surprised someone didn’t mention that as a pastor and as her boss Gary Lamb did have some measure of authority over this woman, I hope that authority was not abused nor misused.
I can only speak for myself but I get tired of sin in the pulpit not being dealt with. Sure Lamb lost his church and sure Noble says there will be steps to restoration and I do not believe that Gary should be forever banished from ministry if he repents and shows true, genuine repentance.
However, in reading Gary’s letter numerous times, it’s obvious that the affair is not the big problem. He admits to his pride as well.
I am all for morality in the pulpit. Have I ever desired a woman sexually in the past 14 years? Yes and I married her. My eyes don’t wander. Why not you ask? Because in order to overcome lust of the eyes, I began telling myself years ago that Christian women are my sisters in Christ, beloved by God, that they are special. There is a huge difference in me telling my female friends they look nice or I like their hair and in having an affair with them.
I know some struggle with different things but this area is NOT a struggle for me because I’ve worked hard to maintain integrity and purity in the pulpit. It does not make me better or worse than Lamb but it does safeguard me from this happening.
I would never feel the need for a personal assistant as a pastor.
Or on the other side of the coin, Joel Osteen and T.D. Jakes have female personal assistants but they don’t sleep with them.
It is beyond time that we have integrity, morality and purity in the pulpit. We can not have folks with egos or with sexual sins trying to lead the people of God.
My congregation expects me to minister to everyone and If I said I don’t counsel females alone I don’t think I’d have a job.
What I see here is that there are a lot of apologists for Gary Lamb for those who may consider him their beloved pastor, but again, that’s a problem too. We should never exalt a pastor, only God.
Oh and as far as different types of physical affairs, I don’t think so. The Bible is very clear on what Adultery is and is not. A physical affair is sex, period. Just ask David.
Here are Billy Graham’s leadership principles on how to avoid temptation:
http://tinyurl.com/ls2npv
I don’t see a problem with Perry’s rules… If anything, no one will be able to accuse. That can be a powerful weapon, almost as destructive as an adulterous affair. I agree that it is a matter of the heart, but it doesn’t hurt to keep yourself out of potentially dangerous situations.
So then what do we call it when a man who is married kisses a man who is married to someone else? Is that not considered a physical affair? I doubt it is considered an emotional one, yes, there are different types of affairs. I have known soomeone who was married to make-out with someone who wasnt, what would you call that? it is not being faithful to the persons spouse, they did not take their relationship any farther and did not intend to. So, what would you call that? I think it is fair to say it falls under the physical affair adultery category. Just looking at someone in a lustful way, or in a way with bad intention is adultery, just ask Jesus.
And I am not a Gary Lamb apologist, I do not think it fair or christian to speculate or draw conclusions beyond the information we are given.
Haha, PS- Did you notice Perry’s twitter?…
perrynoble: If you are REALLY concerned with the heart of a person then pray for them, talk to them b/c ANY coward can blog/tweet about them!
Duncan- He likes you!
JT: You wrote: “I guess C.S. Lewis wouldn’t be a welcome commenter on your blog.”
The fact that you can cite CSLewis as the author causes your comment problems. The reader knows it’s CSLewis posing as Satan. A bit different don’t you think?
Mr Francis: Are lust and adultery both sins? Yes. Equal? No. Just ask GLamb’s wife if they are equal. Or Elena’s husband.
No one’s claiming sinlessness. This is a serious blog/forum about serious issues. Don’t get sidetracked.
Tommy F
How about we ask God if lust and adultery are equal. According to Jesus and scripture, they are, in fact, equal. Jesus says that if someone lusts they have committed adultery. So, they are equal. It does not matter what Gary’s wife thinks, it does not matter what Elena and her husband think, it matters what God thinks and what God calls it.
Seth: You’re wrong.
All sins are not equal. Jesus is not saying they are equal. He’s saying that even mental, unseen sins are punishable. Lust is sin. Adultery is sin. But, they are not equal. But, they do have a common minimal punishment – death, says Paul. But, they are not all equal. Let’s ask Paul.
In 1 Corinthians 6:18 Paul makes an important distinction. Fornication is more severe than other sins.
Go to Seminary, Seth. You’ll learn a lot. And if you’re lucky someone will take away your shovel.
oh brother. all you self proclaimed, sinless, perfect, people
VML and Seth,
You’re both doing well with your shovels. Not only are you defending GL, you’re denying what even he said.
If the physical relationship really was just holding hands and kissing for six weeks, why do you suppose he or Noble didn’t tell us that? If they were careful to out Elena as the partner so that there would be no confusion that it was anyone else, don’t you suppose they could have also cleared up the confusion about the holding hands thing?
If that’s the case, Lamb is a complete public relations moron. He is not that.
Here’s another thing to think about, guys. If it wasn’t sex, don’t they have a gentlemanly obligation to rescue Elena’s reputation?
I’ll say that if it was just holding hands and kissing (a ridiculous assumption), I would be off-the-hook angry at everyone involved in this for besmirching her reputation so publicly and needlessly.
Sophie,
You know he does.
That’s why he always answers my requests to meet with him affirmatively. I’ll bet you didn’t know that we meet for lunch every second week.
Duncan
I am not saying that for a fact, my point was that you don’t know the details of what happened, you can assume and speculate all you want but you simply do not know, I was giving evidence of what else could have happened and using the kissing example to show that you do not have to sleep together to be committing adultery. I may sound as tho I am defending him, BUT, I am not, I am simply giving other situations that COULD have occurred. I do admit it was wrong, it was a sin, he deserved what he got, but, I do not think it should be blogged about like this, and the attack on the method Perry uses was uncalled for. His method works and has protected him, like I said earlier, everyone has a method, you, me, everyone has something set in place, whether it be mental or physical barriers. I do not think I am digging a hole. You can assume things, but, adding to the information given i do have to agree, is gossip until it is proven fact. Your post actually seems like you discourage people from setting personal boundaries to prevent what happened to Gary from happening to others.
Sin is sin is sin. Sure different sins have different consequences but I’ve already stated that Lamb’s problem is not the affair itself, he admitted it’s his attitude.
Perry Noble can twitter whatever he wants. I sent Gary a message saying that I am praying for he and his family. I am also praying for Elana and her family.
The bottom line, no matter how some people try to sugar coat it is that a pastor, who is supposed to know the word of God inside and out and who is supposed to know better, chose to allow this to happen.
Did Gary not think this would end very badly for everyone involved?
The Bible says that our sins will find us out.
Lamb is not just a victim of spiritual warfare as his followers might want to believe. He is a victim of his own stupidity.
If he has repented then God has forgiven him, but that does NOT mean he should be hailed as a hero nor back in the pulpit anytime soon.
Both Lamb and Noble seem to be trying to do PR work for Gary alone.
Gary says he is sorry. Sorry for what? That you got caught?
What happened to Gary’s marriage vows that he made before God to “forsake all others” and to keep himself only unto his wife?
What was so appealing about this other woman that he chose this affair?
How did they convince one another to cross that line?
And don’t think I’m all about Gary. I would say the same things about any so called pastor who did the same thing.
I hope we see God’s redemptive power in this but so far it appears that Gary is trying to be the martyr of satan’s attack either through his own mind or how Noble wants to spin it.
Elena is just as much to blame as Gary is because here is someone who is also married, also a christian, also in ministry and who also knows that adultery is wrong.
If you don’t believe adultery is wrong why did the law call for such persons to be stoned?
Here’s what should have happened when the news broke of Gary & Elena’s affair:
They should both be reminded that God loves them and that the community of believers love them but that what they did was wrong and sin.
They should both be led to repent before God and to their families and to each other.
Elena is asked to resign from the church
Gary is asked to resign from the church
Gary has his ordination rescinded and is no longer recognized as a pastor anywhere.
Steps are drawn up by the leadership of the church under the direction of the Holy Spirit to lead both parties to restoration with God and man.
Counseling is offered to both parties and their spouses.
They learn from their mistakes and sin and resolve to live Holy lives as the Bible calls for us all to do.
These issues need discussed because of how they impact the kingdom. We all need to watch our words, actions and deeds because of how others see us and more importantly how God sees us.
To Gary and Elena I ask was it worth it? Was the intimacy worth destroying your respective marriages, losing the respect of so many people and standing outside of where God wants you to be?
To the person who asked about two men kissing who are both married to others I ask why where they kissing? I’ve kissed men, my nephews, uncles and the Bible instructs to greet each other with a holy kiss.
If a married man, kisses another married man in a romantic, sexual way I think we have more than adultery to concern ourselves with.
The Bible defines physical adultery as sex between two people not married to someone else and where one or both are married to another.
Pastor Brian
A clinical hour is 45 minutes??? I need a shrink just thinking about that. Who knew
Pastor Brian, what do you think happened in this scenario? You laid out your “what should happen”. What amazes me is how everyone just ASSUMES that there was not some sort of apology to Elena and/or her husband.
Perhaps…just perhaps…in the conversations between Elena and the leadership at Revolution, it was HER desire to not be in the public eye more than necessary. That SHE recognized the need to name herself in the public statement so that her choices don’t negatively affect others any more than they already have, but that she didn’t want to be in the “limelight” of the situation.
Perhaps…not hearing more about her is actually respecting her wishes. She and her husband have taken down both their blogs and twitter accounts. I highly doubt that was a “requirement of the leadership”, but a personal decision.
So perhaps you should stop assuming the worse in this situation, since YOU DON’T KNOW. This is an absolutely devastating time for both families involved, and honestly, you are just contributing to it.
How very sad that you feel the need to devote so much time to this matter that doesn’t even involve you.
Oh Duncan….Im not defending GL I am just saying things could have happened that we have no clue about – assuming doesn’t make it better for Elena or GL. I do not know either of them so I am not biased. I was just making a point that physical things, apologies,etc…. all could or could not have happened. I won’t say that either of them made a good choice. They both made an AWFUL one. Who started IT doesn’t really matter either. They both fell to temptation of some sort. As far as I am concerned they are both to blame. Elena was part of it so her name was mentioned. Fair is fair. She is just as involved as GL. No doubt they both are carrying HUGE regrets. It is our duty to pray for them and their hurting church – not talk about them and make it worse.
I just listened to the message from Revolution last week by Gary Lamb’s friend Greg Rohlinger. I am absolutely ABHORRED that he NEVER prays for or asks the church to lift up Elena or Kyle or their family. Greg asks the church to support Deana and to pray for Gary as well as to support and pray for the staff… but NOT ONCE did he ever pray for or ask the community to lift up Elena or Kyle…. UNBELIEVABLE! What a crap load of hypocritical grace and forgiveness spoken from the very stage that advertises it in abundance. This is completely unacceptable. Its this kind of crap that turned my stomach and helped make my decision years ago to resign from church ministry and organized religion. Take a listen for yourself. You can hear the hypocrisy as much as the crocodile tears come thru the message.
http://www.therevolution.tv/podcast/media/2009-06-08-01_20090607.mp3
I’m pretty sure about one thing…the real Satan is loving the bickering and sarcastic zingers that are being thrown between fellow believers on this blog. If nothing else, posts and comments like those I’m reading here make Satan’s destruction of fallen pastors so worth while…
I attend Perry’s church and at first thought his “never alone with a woman” rule was a little severe and somewhat silly. However, it is extremely smart if for no other reason that it may cut down on a little gossip. People are always looking to repeat a story after they have embellished it with what they think is really going on (i.e. “we don’t see the world as it is but as we think it is). In the small town of Anderson there are many people who would love to see Perry alone with a woman to start the gossip mill going. It goes anyway, but this is just one smart way to keep in down. Well done Perry, I don’t know if you are being “legalistic” about this but it’s SMART.
The matter definitely involves me because I am an ordained pastor, who has been doing this, scratch that, living out this calling for 14 years and I for one am sick and tired of immorality in the pulpit and then apologists for the offender(s) pretending that everything is “A O.K.”
People like Gary Lamb and the other so called, self professed pastors and church leaders have ZERO business trying to lead the people of God when by their own admission have made it all about themselves through their own attitudes, actions, words and deeds. Lamb admitted his ego had become a problem. Ge admitted to the “emotional and physical affair.”
There is nothing left for his apologists to defend on his behalf.
I make a life long commitment to integrity at the highest level, to being moral and upright and to serving God and putting others above myself and this idiot thinks he can have an immoral, sinful affair and everyone is supposed to stand behind him?
If this woman was his “personal assistant” then Lamb abused his power as her boss in the affair.
The man knows better and get it through your thick skull…. GARY LAMB, OF HIS OWN FREE WILL CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR. ALENA, ALSO OF HERE OWN FREE WILL, CHOSE TO HAVE AN AFFAIR.
This is willful sin with forethought to the action. Pre-meditated sin.
Obviously the woman and her husband want to crawl under a rock and hide because of what happened in removing their presence from the internet.
Having a free speech discussion is not making matters worse.
I would hate for Gary Lamb to move 5,000 miles from Canton, GA where no one knows him and get in another church. There is a huge sin issue here.
I’ve said many times that Gary and his family and Alena and her family all need prayers.
But instead of defending them, you should be willing to admit that they chose to sin against God, against each other and against the Church, not to mention their own families.
And check it out, public sin requires public apology. Not some letter read by someone else and posted on some blog.
Face your sin, admit to it, confess it, repent of it and make the necessary steps to restitution and restoration.
Lamb and Noble has preached Restoration so long that if left up to church members alone He’d be back in the pulpit on Sunday.
I don’t have to say what did happen because Lamb made that clear in his blog.
Another Lamb apologists and another failure to mention Elena.
http://tonymccollum.com/2009/06/heartbreaking-news/
James,
I have to be honest, I have not read any of your previous posts, and I was looking for the information on this story.
I don’t know how exactly close Perry Noble and Gary Lamb are or were. I don’t go to Newspring and I don’t agree with everything that Perry Noble says and/or does, but why do you criticize him for this matter? It’s not Perry’s fault that this affair happened. I urge you to pray about this kind of stuff before you write it.
I don’t know where you stand. I don’t know what kind of church you go to, lead, etc. But I would hope that you have the right heart to pray for this situation instead of tearing it down and tearing other brothers down.
If you have a problem with Perry, man up and go talk to him in person or give him a phone call like Scripture says instead of blasting him with your words on a blog.
All I’m saying is choose your words carefully. God knew this was all going to happen and he knows what the final outcome is going to be. Pray brother, not tear down.
Pastor Brian : I’m new to this site .. What church are you at and where is it ?
G. Wood
Revolution Church volunteer
Maybe Elena doesn’t want her name spoken of anymore? Maybe her name not being mentioned is a good thing? She might be making the best step and totally removing herself….
Pastor Brian.
Please be more careful with your accusations. In Tony McCollum’s own words:
“you’re point about the assistant’s family is a great one. We definitely need to be praying for them as well.”
Doesn’t get any more plain and direct than that.
Pastor Brian you need to acknowledge that no one is trying to slight Elena by their lack of mentioning her. They are asking for prayer specifically for Gary because they have a personal relationship with him. You are splitting hairs for the sake of argument. Go to Gary’s FaceBook page. Many of his friends have called him out and told him to change his behavior.
A letter read in public is a public apology. You don’t like Gary and you want everyone to know he sinned and blew it big time. I think by now everyone realizes that so why not move on?
I don’t like Gary? That’s absolutely absurd!!! I have done enough PR over the years professionally that I know what it looks like when I see others doing it. I’ve trained people in the art.
My point was that Gary Lamb should have admitted to an affair with a married woman. He did NOT have to identify her, he didn’t even have to say it was a staff person. Just an affair, if he wants to be the man others say he is and take responsibility.
Lamb and Noble want to minimize the impact on Gary and try to save his reputation, so of course they throw out her name so that some will focus their anger on her and not Gary.
A letter read in public by someone else is not even close to an apology from the offender. Gary’s sin is public and he himself needs to publicly acknowledge it and repent of it in person from his own mouth, not a letter read by another.
I’ve dealt with sin in the camp, I’ve dealt with church discipline done the biblical way. People need to get off their high horse and do what the Bible says to do. Not some cheaply veiled plan that Noble has to get Gary back in the pulpit by Labor Day.
Wow, so you are an ordained pastor (which, by the way, does not automatically mean this “involves you”…not at all. Do you know anyone personally in this situation? Then no…it doesn’t involve you).
Ordained pastor, mental health professional, public relations trainer. Wow, you’ve got quite a resume there!
Again…not the reason Elena’s name was mentioned. It was actually a way to thwart gossip. Do you not think people wouldn’t start talking when she was no longer employed at the church either?
Can you please, please, please stop with the assumptions that she hasn’t REQUESTED to be left out of the picture after the initial letter?
What is going on? Gary once said that he used to read all the trash that was said about him because “EVERY IDIOT HAS A BLOG” Well sir, you must have been the idiot that Gary was speaking of. You make assuptions that Elana & Kyle are no longer on twitter or facebook, but yet they are.. Last time I checked you are not a regular attender of Revolution, you have no idea of what you are talking about. Revolution is a Family of People who love eachother and accept all. We do not judge people for the actions that they commit. We forgive and move on for Who are we to Throw that 1st stone. As for you Sir that is all you have done is thrown stones at MY PASTOR Gary Lamb. He is human he and Elana made a very stupid mistake. She was named becuase The Board of Trustees did not want any speculation as to whom he had an affair with. Elana is not innocent either. This note is not to Lift up Gary but to note that 2 people in or not in church did something that they shouldn’t have done..You sir are not any more innocent. You have belittled, made fun of, and have been abusive to all members of Revolution Church as well as those affiliated with us.. Maybe you should come to Revolution and see the Love that is in that Building-THE NON-JUDGING LOVE! We are the most supportive group of individuals. And We forgive Elana & Gary and will not judge them for they are only human…We at Revolution have a Group that Meets every Tuesday Night at 6pm.. Its called CELEBRATE RECOVERY, it is for those with Hurts, Hang-Ups & Habits. You should stop by, You have obvious issues with Bashing Pastors!. it may not be the Old School Southern Baptist or whatever you believe in and no matter how he taught it.. We still have nearly 3000 people every Sunday at Service to Listen.
Get Over Yourself. I hope that All the judgement that you have placed upon others on Earth, will kindly be given back to you in Heaven.. Is what your doing Godly?
Jenn, you write that I am an idiot. On your blog you say that I’m a total Tool (I’m flattered by the capitalization). You say that I have no idea and you wish judgment on me.
So, how is that non-judging love you’re learning about working out for you?
JDunc –
You took the words out of my mouth.
I am a NEW Christian so I dont know all the rules and guidelines…I do know that from what we have all been through is extremly emotional and with any tragedy there are going to be those who critize what others do no matter what the situation is..It saddens me to know what your “qualifications” state that your a Mental Health Professional.. How can you teach mental health when all it seems to be is hate that you write about? Our your living a double life? Gary is an outstanding Individual and I truly Respect him and if he is preaching by Labor Day like you State than I will Gladly have my Ass! in that seat. Please stop judging a book by it’s cover when all you have is hearsay information.
Wow~when people have said that Satan comes to knock down anything Godly that is going on they weren’t kidding! Way too much attention is being given to the whole incident over Gary and Elana. At this point it is between them,their family’s and God! Ultimately God is who they have to answer to. I have read many blogs posted about this~one point I have come to agree with is that the more people focus on this the less they have to focus on them and their sinful nature! I am one of those people that the whole premise of Revolution is based upon~reaching people FAR from God. For whatever reason~God’s plan`not mine~Revolution came into my life and presented itself to me and made it possible for me to develop a relationship with God. At any other time in my life or at any other church~I doubt that I would still be attending or working on my relationship with God.Despite everything that is being said about the recent events with Revolution~which BTW never seems to mentioned the miracles and over 300 people coming into a relationship w/Christ since the beginning of the year~Satan has failed to stop the force that is going on~in fact has only strengthened our resolve to continue with what Gary has started..REACHING PEOPLE FAR FROM GOD! Nothing Gary or Elana has done has shaken the foundation of my faith. It only enforces in me what Gary has been teaching all along~that we are ALL sinners~worthy of God’s forgiveness and eternal happiness thru a relationship w/Christ. It saddens me to see all who seem to have lost that vision and are so quick to judge.Look in your own glass house before you start throwing stones!
Just a couple of things that I feel need to be addressed, in this issue and similar ones to come:
1.) Why don’t you go directly to this person? BECAUSE THEY WON’T ALLOW IT! These pastors systematically isolate themselves from any form criticism outisde of a small circle of people. If you wanted to address an issue with them privately there would be no avenue to do so. They give excuses for doing this, and claim that the circle of people from whom they will accept criticism are people they trust and respect. This circle actually turns into people who will agree with them on all points. If you challenge the pastor, you are no longer in the group he accepts criticism from. I can show you where all of these pastors have set up this system, and where they have dismissed people who dared disagree with them. Therefore, the only avenue they have left available for criticism is to do so publicly.
2.) If this is such a private matter on to be discussed privately, Why did Gary Lamb share it with the world via his blog? See, these guys want all the positives of being a pseudo-celebrity, but then cry foul when someone dares stand up to them. They need to grow up. If they can’t take the heat of the public scrutiny, there are tons of ways to live their lives more privately.
3.) How are people supposed to react to news that a pastor is having an affair with his assistant? The forgive and forget train left town years ago. Some of us are tired of pastors using the pulpit as their personal sex service. You are asking us to take it easy on the guy…I think we need to be tougher on these predators. Bottom line is, someone with so little control over his sexual desires has no business being a pastor. Yes, I said that, and yes, I would stick with that for myself or any other person in ministry. If you are looking for extra-marital encounters, troll the single’s bars, but stay out of the pulpit. Period. This ABUSE has to stop somewhere.
Downing
On you point number one, I would like to comment, yes, people leave ut that was over a disagreement over the direction of the church. If you follow these pastors blogs, or heard them speak, they have tense moments in the senior staff meetings, they have moments where they all disagree on something, NS has had instances where everyone agreed on something that Perry did not like. They do not surround themselves with “yes” people but surround themselves with people devoted to God. Yes, they do have disagreements on staff, but, they work it out. Many of these pastors go back on either Sunday night or Monday and watch the service to critique themselves.
Seth – A.) How about instead of follwing blogs etc…I know them, and have worked closely with them. I know alot of what goes on behind the scenes, that most people aren’t privy to. Even that being said, you skipped the point of my post, that you can’t take an issue to them personally because they won’t allow it. So, you trust their inner circle, who cares? James Duncan is not in the inner circle and would therefore not be aloowed to take up a matter in private. He has no other option but a public forum.
AS far as whether the inner circle are “yes men” or not… if they are not, they are no longer in the inner circle. Oh sure, disagrrements over minor issues are acceptable…but for instance, Had someone noticed Lamb’s innapropriate relarionship before this all came out, and tried to take it up privately, I assure you that person would be dismissed.
You also have to understand, they pastor a rather large church, if you let everyone come in to talk who had disagreements or agreements or just wanted to talk, he would never have time to do any work. Also, some people have good arguements and others do not, so how do you decide which to listen to and which not to listen to? How do you listen to everyone and still have time to do ministry?
My point exactly. My answer was to those who say “You should take this up privately.” If you are not in the circle, you are not allowed to take it up privately, so that arguement should no be used anymore.
Downing,
You are exactly right about their refusing to listen to private criticism, then dismissing any public criticism because it’s not private. It’s a joke and I’m tired of hearing it. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve asked for a private meeting with PN. Someone ask Tony Morgan how well inner circles tolerate even private differences.
Seth,
You make a good argument for limiting the size of a church. Isn’t it an interesting dynamic, that you say that when your church gets too big, it becomes impossible for the believers to play the Berean role in the pastor’s life? I’d say that’s when it becomes most critical, because popular leaders may well have become that way by figuring out how to satisfy itching ears.
Look, if you’re a pastor and someone in your congregation has a disagreement with you, it means that either you are wrong or they are wrong (perhaps you’re both wrong). No shepherd should be content with letting that state of affairs continue. Don’t they at least have a spiritual responsibility to correct one or the other?
And does the Pastor not have a responsibility to also have to take care of everyone in the congregation? So if you have a congregation of 15,000, chances are, you will have have at least 100 people in the congregation (not to mention the countless others who critique NS who don’t go there like yourself) who you would also have to listen to, so, where does the Pastor find time to work on next weeks sermon? where does he find time to work on the other parts of the church? if you gave everyone only 30 mins a week to disscuss their problems they have woth you, thats a more than 50 hours work week and you haven’t even started working on anything else. That is why you have staff, take you problems to them, let them answer, if they can’t they should direct you to someone who does.
Also, like I said, why should he listen to the critiques of someone who doesn’t attend NS regularly or is even a member. I would say you start with them first, then move to attenders, then people like yourself. So, if anything, he would never get around to listening to you because of the amount of people that would come before you on the pecking order if they did change things up. By listening to you duncan, he would not be tending to his flock since you are not in his flock.
Seth – you have made your point very clear. J Duncan has ample biblical ground for running this blog. I’m not saying Perry should talk to Duncan, he’s far to big a star for that. I’m saying for those that continually say – take this to Perry privately – that is an impossibility. Blog away J Duncan! Seth agrees!