Introducing the Turnstile Church
Posted: June 17th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Church, Cooper, Evangelism, Furtick, Noble, Worship | 63 Comments »(This post is a followup to this one about the purpose of church.)
A few months ago while watching Brad Cooper’s effing Bible video, I saw the basic difference between the way he and I approach church.
To set the scene, Cooper is welcoming his congregation to a newly built (bamf) facility on the NewSpring campus. He has a very important point he wants his people to understand, so we get this illuminating piece of dialog.
Cooper: I want you right now to tell the person beside you, “This building was not built for you.” So you say, “What do you mean by that, Brad? Who was this building built for?”
Seminary student who hadn’t read the script: Jesus!
Cooper (in yes-but-really-no mode): Yeah, absolutely. But why would Jesus give us a tool like this?
He explains that because anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, that it’s really for the unsaved friends of the people there, who need to be invited so that they’ll be able to call on the name of the Lord in Cooper’s church. Cooper then lays down the law:
Do you want me to tell you what is failure? Let me tell you what is failure if you believe what we just read. Failure is you showing up by yourself next week.
Look at me in the face! You don’t believe the Word of God if you show up by yourself next week!
Although Cooper grudgingly agrees with Ms. Seminary that it should be for Jesus, his real LOOK AT ME IN THE FACE point is that it is built for unbelievers who have not yet visited the church. Who’s more important here? God, believers or unbelievers. Certainly it’s unbelievers. Existing believers are told that they essentially are faithless if they also don’t agree with Cooper’s hyperventilating pleas to turn the church inside out to get the unsaved there.
Cooper is not alone. The $700 man, Steven Furtick, flat out told the believers in his church that his church wasn’t for them.
We preach so that people can come to faith in Christ, and we want them to get in a small group and serve so that other people can come to Christ.
If you know Jesus–I am sorry to break it to you–this church is not for you.
“Yeah, but I just gave my life to Christ last week at Elevation.”
Last week was the last week that Elevation Church existed for you. You’re in the army now. We do one thing; we preach Jesus so that people far from God can know Jesus, and then we train them up so that others can know Jesus.
It’s called kingdom multiplication. It’s what Elevation Church is all about, and over 500 people have given their lives to Jesus for the first time in this church in the last five months. That’s over 100 per month.
If that doesn’t get you excited, and you need the “doctrines of grace” as defined by John Calvin to excite you, you’re in the wrong church. Let me get a phone book; there are 720 churches in Charlotte. I’m sure we can find you one where you can stuff your face until you’re so obese spiritually that you can’t even move.
Watch the video to witness the profound anger here.
Perry Noble shares Furtick’s distaste for churches who cater to God and believers. In fact, Noble’s vision of the church is so backwards and distorted that he sees expressions of worship as insulting profanity.
We have a purpose…and it’s not to be a country club with a steeple on top that gives our community the middle finger and tells them to go to hell because reaching them would make us uncomfortable!
The architectural purpose of the church steeple was to exalt God by pointing skyward, and to invite people to worship by being an unmistakable local landmark. As one Kentucky steeple maker said,
A steeple points one to the heavens, symbol of the dwelling place of Christ. Through city streets, across the valleys and lakes, through the countryside far and wide, the steeple declares Christ.
Where most of us see Christ, is it a complete surprise that Noble sees a middle finger? Actually, it seems that he sees a lot of Christianity this way.
Every week people show up at their stained glass fortressed and give their community the middle finger and tell them to go to hell.
I never see it prescribed in Scripture than when a church reaches a “comfortable” size–usually around 120 people–that the community should be given the middle finger and told to go to hell because additional people might mess up the holy huddle!
Noble equates the discipleship and equipping of believers as middle fingeresque.
Like it or not–Jesus didn’t go to a bookstore, get a theology book by a dead white guy, get a group of guys together that were just like Him and give the world the middle finger because He was obsessed with “going deep!”
If I meet one more group of guys who think they are becoming more like Jesus because they are theological superior to people (which, by the way, is PRIDE!) but do not know a lost person by name or refuse to exercise their spiritual gift…and yet claim to be godly…I am going to punch them in the throat!
I suppose Noble’s fist trumps devout middle fingers.
In one of his middle-finger diatribes, Noble lays out his own description of his church, which you can find here. It is all about reaching unbelievers, but you’ll have to look hard to find mention of the worship of God (church purpose #1) or the assembly of believers (church purpose #2).
Noble, Furtick, Cooper, Lamb, Warren and many, many others are trying to redefine church by making it primarily about nonbelievers. If you ask them, they’ll give a perfunctory answer that church is really for God, as Cooper’s seminary guest forced him to do, but their actions and emphasis tell us that it’s mainly about nonbelievers. Cooper and Furtick specifically told their audience that they were more interested in people outside the family of God.
Getting people in the doors is much more important than offering them anything once they walk in. Make them feel bad, conscript them into the army, and get more people in the doors.
Several terms have been used to describe these new churches: emergent, emerging, etc. It’s all very confusing, so I offer a new term: The Turnstile Church.
Definition: Churches that attract people for the purpose of attracting more people for the purpose attracting more people for the purpose…
Feed my sheep? Not so much.
Similar Posts:
- Who is church for?
- Is church a building?
- Running the Numbers
- Worship without thinking
- How Church Growth Happens at Elevation
I think that Noble, Cooper, Furtick, etc, are confused as to what they are saying vs. what they are practicing. That, or they are hypocrites. Cooper has hinted and Furtick has blatantly stated that “if you know Jesus . . . this church isn’t for you.”
My question to them would be then why is there need for members? Why is there a need for the membership classes? If what Furtick says is true, then why is he preaching every week on stage (unless, in fact, he doesn’t know Jesus)?
The point of them saying that “if you don’t know Jesus…this church isn’t for you” is more of a point to make that they will do everything the can to reach lost people. I know for a fact at elevation they have volunteers who help ever week and our not saved. At NS, you have to be a saved, baptized member to volunteer.
The part about what this building is for, and the steeple part, are references to NS’s belief that the church is more than a physical building, that it is more about the group of believers. The reason he talks about steeples the way he does is because he has seen it, I have seen and been a part of it. Note though, he is only attacking churches who do not reach out and only focus in themselves. If your church reaches out to others then you should not take any offense. And also, I have seen people go to seminary and people who have sat around and leanred and learned so much but never used it. They never used their learning to reach people for Jesus, they never used it to teach other people, they just kept learning but not using it.
Mr. Duncan,
I was not commenting on yesterdays post. I heard about what was going on here, so I checkd it out for myself. I do however go to NS. I am a christian and have been for most of my life. However before I started NS I lost both of my parents and was very mad at God! I went to a small pentacostal church my whole life. Out of everything I learned there I thought that since i had gotten so mad at God that there was no hope for me. However I did start going to NS after being asked to go for almost a year, thinking the whole thing was a joke I tried it and loved it. And I now know because of the things PN has preached on that no matter what, God still loves me. I recently got babptised at NS and feel like a new person. No everything perry says is not always right, but who is?
I do now he has brought so many people to christ, this I have seen with my own eyes. The bible says everyone should work together for the good of others.
I think if you would join perry in bringing people to god instead of going against everything he says would make God happy. I don’t think that this makes him very happy, do you? No one is perfect Mr Duncan, I know I’m not and I have never heard PN claim to be either. And yes with a church that big Im sure there are people there for the wrong reasons, but maybe they will get saved while they are there! No church should be about the pastor, it is gods house. And I strongly believe that with all the people that are there if PN is not meant to be pastor over that church then God will take care of it. Not a blog page. May God bless you MR. Duncan.
Yeah…with this kind of focus, I don’t even know that these institutions can be called church. At the very best, they are providing a very shaky foundation for new beleievers. At worst, they are creating a ton of false converts. I do question Perry’s motivation for constantly dogging other churches. My guess is he realizes that is where the bulk of his attenders are coming from, not the unbelievers like he claims.
The main problem with Perry Noble, Brad(bamf)Cooper, and Steven Furtick is the Bible is not their final authority. These men only give lip service to the Bible when it serves their own purpose, when the Bible condemns their worldly actions and language, they simply ignore it while proclaiming how many people confessed Jesus and all the good works of NS!
The problem is rebellion. You can not mix light with darkness to please God because He will reject it. The number of members is meaningless with God because God is not about popular consensus.
Romans 12:9-13
1 Timothy 6:3-10 (NASB)
6:3 If anyone advocates a different doctrine and does not agree with sound words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and with the doctrine conforming to godliness,
4 he is conceited and understands nothing; but he has a morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words, out of which arise envy, strife, abusive language, evil suspicions,
5 and constant friction between men of depraved mind and deprived of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain.
6 But godliness actually is a means of great gain when accompanied by contentment.
7 For we have brought nothing into the world, so we cannot take anything out of it either.
8 If we have food and covering, with these we shall be content.
9 But those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful desires which plunge men into ruin and destruction.
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
I fear numbers, money, and rebellion is what is pushing Perry Noble, Brad Cooper, and Steven Furtick.
They accept the world and reject:
Titus 2:11-14 (NASB)
2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
1 John 2:15-17 (NASB)
2:15 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17 The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
Galatians 6:14 (NASB)
6:14 But may it never be that I would boast, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
As a former NewSpringer it seems so many of the people going their are not grounded in the Scriptures. It really concerns me how the Scriptures take a back set to NS and Perry Noble when the Scriptures are very clear in pointing out problems with NS and Perry Noble.
1 Corinthians 2:1-16 (NASB)
2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away;
7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;
9 but just as it is written, “Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard , And which have not entered the heart of man , All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,
13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
16 For Who has known the mind of the Lord , that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Romans 6:15-19 (NASB)
6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
My prayer is for people to wake up and come out from under these men if they will not repent and submit to Jesus 100%.
David J
Please let me know when you have found this “perfect church” with “perfect people” that does everything perfectly and exactly follows scripture to the letter.
Seth,
There are no perfect churches, but this little fact does not cover NewSpring and Perry Nobles rebellion. What about addressing my Scriptures vs your baseless statement.
Sin is sin. The bottom line is Noble, Cooper, and Furtick all rebel against the Word of God. There is no way to sugar coat this by claiming “perfect church” or “perfect people”. The tainted teachings coming from these men are revealed as false by simply reading the Scriptures.
Sheep strive to obey and follow the Word, goats bulk and rebel against the Word. A sheep knows it needs the Word thus knowing it is not perfect, while the goat makes excuses to remain in sin and rebellion trying to sugar coat sin.
Perry Noble and Brad Coopers fowl mouths are enough to prove these men are carnal with no desire to strive to be godly as the Bible clearly commands us to do.
Titus 1:5-16 (NASB)
1:5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you,
6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled,
9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict.
10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain.
12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”
13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
The Scriptures are the reason I left NewSpring and it was the Scriptures that opened my heart to the many problems found at NewSpring.
@Seth,
Perfect church is hardly the point. I am however interested in your first post in which you are attempting to explain what Noble, et al meant by their words. Did you meet with Noble, Coop and Furtick and did they enlighten you as to what they meant. I ask because you sound as if you consulted with them and are now prepared to tell us all what they meant. What they said is what they meant, taken in any context you would like to choose. Their words betray their thoughts and their words are crass and indefensible.
Do you really think that anyone who heard Noble equate a steeple with a bird finger will not make the connection everytime they pass any steeple in town. Any steeple.
Steeple = Bird finger. I got the message loud and clear, no matter how you want to spin it or explain it away.
I agree that Brad should have said what he said in a diffrent way. But no one ever said NS was perfect WHO IS? I’m not! Are you? How is constantly putting NS down furthering the kingdom of God? Is there nothing you could be spending your time on that would make God pleased, besides constantly going against everything NS does. You should only be happy that so many people are comeing to Christ through NS. I mean is that not the purpose of all churches to win people for God? So Brad said something that wasnt the correct thing to say, but how many churches do you go to that during worship the teenagers have thier hands raised to praise god with tears in their eyes. He must be doing something right.
When Jesus was on earth he did not set up a church and sit in it and preach. He went out and found NON BELIEVERS and told them about his father and himself. He preached to everyone who wanted to hear. He taught that God is with us and that he cares for us. And guess who he was mainly preaching to, NON BELIEVERS! The purpose of membership is to volunteer, to bring more people to Jesus! Is that not what it’s all about. Once you are saved you are encouraged to join a home group. Which is awesome we learn the word of God together, and are there for each other, and we find life long friends in christ! What can be better than that. It’s personal, it’s learning about the bible, and it’s fellowship. Believe it or not it’s not a party! And who says following God should not be fun! Do you not have enough faith in God that if Perry is doing wrong that god would not bring him down! Look at all the great leaders in the bible that when they let pride get in the way Jesus didnt allow them to continue to be leaders and kings he brought them down. Don’t you think he would do the same with Perry? So NO NS is not perfect but show me a church or preacher or person who is. You can’t Because the bible says there is only one perfect person his name is JESUS.
Now Furticks comment on “multiplication” ministry warrants a comment. I was involved in such a ministry almost 30 years ago, so his statements are Deja Vu all over again for me. At that time, I learned very quickly that my purpose in life, as far as the church was concerned, was to invite people to church or small group. Cooper’s comment on being a failure if you come to church with no visiter is also not new. The similar attitude in the past was quite a motivation for me then. Being older, my motivation is much different now.
What has happened to this ministry 30 years later? It still exists, but in a much more fragmented way now. This began when people began to feel used. They felt used because they were used and when many decided they had enough, they began to walk away with their attitudes, their wallets and their feet.
The new emergent church talks alot about the people who come through the front door, but say very little about the people exiting out the back door. But when you believe you made a disciple simply because they came to church with you, you don’t care about the back door. Why should you? You did what you were supposed to do. Pat yourself on the back, because you were not a failure.
Now making disciples? That’s someone elses problem.
Tending sheep is hard work, I guess.
Audra,
Perfection is not on trial here. The idea of a single-serving church is.
Yes, Jesus did preach to many, many unbelievers. But, I would not call it his primary ministry. What about the 12? What were they for? How many times did they share intimate moments where Jesus discipled them one-on-one. What about the Last Supper? Jesus clearly cared for his followers on an individual level also.
I think Duncan is right on this one. The focus of mega-churches seems to be drawing towards a New Christian agenda and leaving discipleship behind. I’m not saying this is what’s happening at NS (Seth gave a pretty good overview of what the homegroups look like and I was encouraged by it), but it’s an easy trap for large churches to fall into.
@ Audra
Telling people they are failures for not bringing a visitor? How would you have said it? Jesus didn’t treat his own disciples with this kind of invective, crassness and immaturity.
This is not a matter of saying it differently. That was completely the wrong and improper thing to say. How does such talk build disciples?
Is this kind of crassness OK, as long as the ultimate end is achieved? Let’s save souls and insult people at the same time? Wow.
Wow! Isn’t it funny how history repeats itself. Just as Jesus and his disciples were persecuted by the Religious for teaching of Jesus, so is Perry being persecuted for stripping away religion and just teaching of Jesus. If you listen to his sermons you tend to notice a consistent message. Some may not agree with the ways he delivers his message but you have to admit he has been effective. I mean thousands of people have been saved. But I guess it would be better if NS had remained a small church and just kept to themselves. I heard a sermon from the late Bob Jones Sr. he said that a true man of Christ that is reaching people and doing the will of God will be persecuted by those who claim to know Christ and that he feels sorry for them. I am paraphrasing of course. I am not saying you all don’t know Christ but you sure are being hard on Perry.
Albert
Yeah, NS was alittle late getting and focusing on their Home Groups, about 2 years ago they revamped them and started focusing more on them. I would also like you to note what the 12 or 11 did after Jesus left, they preached to a large crowd and saved 3,000 unbelievers. Thats was right after the Holy Spirit came upon them. So, Jesus invested time into his leaders and in turn, they invested time into unchurched or “lost” people. I think that model holds true to today, Once we are saved, alot of the learning of God should be placed on a believers shoulds, not the churches. Look at Acts 2:42
They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.
The phrase “They devoted themselves to the apostle’s teaching…” is very important. They listened to what the 12 taught and did, they shared responsiblility for learning what the Bible says. And once you believe, I do think the church should help you learn, but that a believer should not depend solely on his/her church for learning. Then, that believer can grow in faith through being devoted to the scriptures and through the Holy Spirit along with attending church services and building fellowship with other believers. The church is a place for believers but as in Acts, Peter preached to alot of unbelievers and saved 3,000, So I think a healthy balance of believers and unbelievers is very important since Jesus devoted alot of things to the 12, and then they, upon his leaving and they being filled with the Holy Spirit turn around and preach not to just the small group fo believers, but to at least 3,000 people and they all got saved. So, I think it is a two-fold thing.
David J and KeithO
The point about the perfect church was that it doesn’t exsist here on Earth. I have seen traditional churches with just as many problems as NS and nobody says anything about them. Why? If you look at NS’s sins, you also must pay equal attention to the sins of other churches. I understand NO church does it right, every church has its strengths and weaknesses and every church is set up to reach a different group of people. So I ask, is the church you currently attending getting it all right? Are they perfect? Does the pastor follow everything scripture says 24 hours a day? The thing that gets me most worked up is people who do not like traditional churches and go after them while ignoring the problems that also exsist in their churches or in traditional churches as a whole. So what did Jesus come for? The believers or the unbelievers?
Matthew 9:12-13
“On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
He came for people who are sinners, I always found this passage kind of ironic because we all are sinners. The difference between the “righteous” and the “sinners” is that the righteous think they are perfect and have it all figured out, and the sinners know they are sinners and that they are messed up or they might not know it, they, just know they aren’t perfect. Yes there are other churches out there who are better than NS and there are churches out there who may do something more closely aligned with scripture but does that make them perfect? I will use this quote but in a slightly different light
Matthew 7:3-5
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
You attack and acuse NS of things but have you first looked at your own heart to see if you do anything close to what they do first? Then have you looked at the church you attend and looked to see if they do anything that is wrong? And once you have looked at that, and corrected that, then you may look at NS. Yes, we should test our brothers In christ to see if their teaching holds up to biblical standard but, I think first you must test yourself, then after that you must test the church you attend to see if it meets ALL Biblical standards and if they are doing anything wrong, then, once you have corrected yourself and your church, you may correct other churches. I use to go to churches and point out what was wrong and right, but then I was convicted of this, so I stopped and focused on getting myself right before I went and confronted and/or tested other churches. So, I ask, have done this before coming after NS? Have you tested yourself and your church by the same standards you test NS?
Also Albert, I’m glad I was able to shed some light on NS’s Home Groups. I wasn’t sure how much of it actually made sense of not.
Oh, the steeple maker thinks steeples are important? That’s absolutely shocking! I can’t believe it! Steeples are a symbol, as JDunc says himself; they aren’t sacrosanct. You all need to put your fainting couches away.
Perry Noble takes offense to churches that don’t reach out to the community. From the entry, I see that JDuncan has two arguments: (1) churches shouldn’t reach out to their communities and ESPECIALLY not to nonbelievers; (2) when Perry Noble mentions a “steeple” he is automatically referring to every traditional church in the entire world, regardless of the context.
James Downing wrote: “At the very best, they are providing a very shaky foundation for new beleievers. At worst, they are creating a ton of false converts.”
You’re right, James. At NewSpring, I got all this false information about how Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and walked on earth with truth and grace. I learned that He was human and was tempted as we all are but lived a perfect, sinless life. I learned that He died on the cross to pay for my sins because sin must be paid for with blood, and it’s either mine or His. I learned that He defeated death and rose from the grave. I learned that, if I surrender to Him, that I will be forgiven regardless of my past indiscretions. I learned that, as a Christian, it is my duty to grow in faith and share my faith as I strive daily to walk with Jesus.
That’s a really shaky foundation, especially because the building didn’t even have a steeple!!!
Seth
Iasked you specific questions and I got a lecture about a plank in my eye.
So Noble can kick steeple people around like yard dogs and somehow this is OK to you?
KeithO
The people he is attacking is again those who do not preach the word and who do not follow Jesus. I believe Jesus did this to the pharisees, he attacked them many times for how they were acting. Yes, the plank statement goes both ways, it applies just as much to you as him just as much as it applies to me. He knows many people in traditional churches and has many friends in traditional churches, I have spoken with Furtick, and have been around Perry and NS staff long enough to know that he is talking to people who do not witness to people, who do not do anything for the gospel. If this offends you, maybe you fall into on of those groups. I am NOT saying you do, but, why would someone want to defend something that is not preaching the word of God nor reaching people for the gospel? Is there a better way for him to make his point, yes, do I agree with it all the time, no. But, I will not judge the way he does things because I myself do not have it all together. So, like I said, I know who he is talking to when he says that, so, though I do believe those churches need to hear it, i think there is a better way to say it. So, I partly agree with it and I partly do not.
by the way, the lecture came as a point, I will not put judgement upon him for I know I am not always right. A note on the “lecture” is that I in no way said that you have checked yourself or that you have not, it was more a reminder to do so before casting judgement on someone. I do not mind “testing” what Perry says, but there is a fine line between testing and judging.
James,
I agree with most everything you are saying in respect to church services, so don’t get me wrong when I ask this, but isn’t there a difference between what we expect out of a Sunday service and what should be expected from a Wednesday night service? I don’t agree with Brad saying “you’re not a Christian if you come alone,” but I have no problem with Wednesday nights at a church being all about the non-believer. Wednesday night is a great time for evangelism! That is what I use my wed. night youth meetings for. I use D-groups and discipleship classes for training.
I believe the building he was referring to was the new youth building they just built not the sanctuary. I’ve spoken to Brad at length before and he understands the need to disciple his sheep. He believes in doing it through small groups though. He sees himself as more of the air attack and the kids as the ground troops. They bring non-believers in on Wednesday nights and he preaches the gospel and they follow up and try to get the kid involved in a small group. With a church that size, small groups offer a better opportunity to disciple.
I’m trying to remain neutral on all of this. I see a lot of cool stuff going on at New Spring and a lot of stuff I disagree with, but I know my church is just as bad off in many other areas. Not to say we shouldn’t admonish one another, but I don’t see the need to attack brothers so harshly and adamantly. I just don’t see much good to all of this. It seems more destructive than good and it just causes walls to go up. People stop listening once their walls are up. That’s why we are called to rebuke one another in gentleness and love.
I’m not against you. Trust me. What you are saying, 95% of the time, is spot on. I’m just saying this might work better in a different more directly and personally to Brad and Perry in love or less pointed at brothers and more pointed on the issues (discuss issues without mentioning names). I know you want to warn others about some things you see that are off, but I don’t think what they are doing deserves all of this. They are preaching the gospel. They are administering the sacraments. They believe Christ alone is our salvation. They believe in the triune God, and they believe God’s word is inherent. “If they are for us, they are not against us.”
MW,
It’s good to hear a new voice. Welcome.
Perhaps there is a difference between Wednesday and Sunday, but I don’t know that it’s one that Cooper recognizes, so I don’t think it’s a useful defense. Even so, isn’t Ms. Seminary more correct than Cooper? Even on Wednesday, isn’t it all about Jesus first? See the Sabbath articles for a discussion on that issue.
Even if we give Cooper a youth pastor’s pass, we still see exactly the same philosophy from the head pastors.
You are correct that Cooper’s building is not the main sanctuary, but I don’t see that that makes much difference. Isn’t it all God’s church? They worship from the same stage they desecrate. FWIW, Cooper’s BAMF comment was offered when this hall was being used as a stand-in for the main sanctuary.
As for your other comments, I think I address most of them in today’s judging post.
@MW
Great comment.
Also, I think the NewSpring student ministry has something like 80 small groups that meet throughout the week. Just because Cooper is pressuring the students to make Wednesday night services an outreach to the lost, they haven’t forgotten how to disciple.
I think something is being lost here, the church is not limited to being a building that it meets in. The church can be a core group of believers that meet in a forrest or on the beach with no building. I get the feel that the focus may be on the building, when in fact, it is just that, a building, what makes it a church is when believers meet inside it. (or for some people when it has a steeple on it). When its the body of believers that is the church, not the building.
I have been reading and this has some interesting points. I think people who have went to NS any amount time and do volunteer see there are problem areas but as many others have pointed out no church is perfect. The question I ask myself when frustrations arise, “Am I going to let this frustration overshadow all the good?” Not good, as the community outreach and new believers, but the good in my own life. And so far my answer has been, “No.” A little insight into me, I am a NS member, I volunteer and I lead a home group.
I wanted to address 3 issues.
#1 David J writes in “Being Judicious about judging” “As a former NewSpringer, I can tell you the little secret of home groups is to fortify what Perry Noble preached the Sunday before.”
Not my home group and not any home groups that I know of and I have a big circle of contacts in the church. Don’t misunderstand me, we don’t bash Perry either but rarely do we talk about the sermon on Sunday. I can give you a look at the last 6 months at group. I listen to multiple podcast each week, Andy Stanley, Craig Groeschel, Tommy Sparger, Perry Duggar, to name a few. So there are weeks where my sermon notes can spur a study of something, love, guilt, sin, grace and mercy. I prepare a guide. Give it my group one week and the next week everyone comes back having reviewed the guide and ready to discuss. For 11 weeks, we read 12 Extraordinary Women by John McAuthor. Right now, we are watching Rob Bell videos. My group encourages each other to pray, to stay in The Word daily and we hold each other accountable for weaknesses. There is truth spoken every week and because it is coming from other followers who care for you it is well received. It has made a huge impact having other believers to talk about struggles with and not go through things alone.
#2 James Downing writes “I do question Perry’s motivation for constantly dogging other churches. My guess is he realizes that is where the bulk of his attenders are coming from, not the unbelievers like he claims.”
As part of my volunteering, I work the membership class. I input data from the membership paperwork and there is a place for your former church. As a data unputter I would estimate 70% of our members do not claim to have a former church. With those stats I would say it is fair to state we are reaching the unchurched.
#3 Want to talk Perry? Here’s the plan….attend, join, volunteer. Volunteers have access to him if they want to talk that desperately. But if you need spiritual counsel I suggest your care pastor, Julie Keith or Jake Beaty. For money problems, go to Joe and his team. For volunteer problems, go to your team leader or the service leader or the volunteer coordinator. Perry’s gift is teaching, speaking. The other areas of the ministry are handled by people who gift is that area. And if they are to the point where they are on staff or in leadership they can give you a pretty good feel on what the church does, why the church does it and where the church stands on an issue. David J writes in “Being Judicious about judging” “When I was a member of NewSpring I tried to take my concerns to Perry Noble. Each time I was intercepted by the campus pastor and I was not allowed to speak to Perry.” What’s wrong with the campus pastor? Develop a relationship and conversation with this person. This is their job. I assure you knowing the system, knowing members of the Senior Management Team, including campus pastors, that your issues are addressed in SMT meetings. I said addressed, this doesn’t mean your opinion will change things. If still, you must be the one to talk directly to PN; go back to the plan….attend, join and volunteer.
You may ask what is my argument here? None, I have no argument. Stating the facts as I know them, the best I know them. There were statements here that I felt could use a little more information. I hope to have added to the conversation.
Seth,
What NewSpring defenders are ignoring is the authority of the Scriptures. I find it alarming how the Scriptures are ignored and Noble’s errors are defended when the Scriptures are clearly against what Noble/Cooper are doing.
Think about what I said about sheep and goats. The goat will always look at the sheep and say,”You are not perfect. You do not have a perfect flock! So who are you to judge me?” but alas the goat ignores the sheep’s efforts to strive to be godly even when the sheep knows it’s not perfect nor is its flock perfect. The goat refuses to try to strive by following the Word and uses these excuses “no perfect people” to justify rebellion and sin all because no sheep is perfect. A sheep hears the Word of God and submits to His authority while knowing they are not perfect, but the goat hears the Word of God and scoffs at it always pointing the finger at the Sheep, who is striving to be godly, while reminding everyone that no sheep is perfect. The goat refuses to change and leave sin behind, while the sheep will focus on change and repent from sin.
We are to be sheep and not goats:
Colossians 2:6-8 (New American Standard Bible)
6 Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
7 having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established [a]in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
We are to walk in Him and not according to the world. The elementary(basic) principles(an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct) of the world will capture us and we will become slaves of carnal nature and sin(refer to BAMF and Noble’s fowl mouth). When we “walk in Him” we set aside the things of the world and strive to be like Him.
A goat will never heed to this message, but a sheep that has fallen when hear the Word and repent. Sheep follow Jesus while goats scoff at him(the goat will praise Jesus as long as Jesus fits within the goats lifestyle and ways.)
Yes this message is hard but it’s the truth. A sheep is not offended by the truths found in God’s Word.
Seth,
Good point about the commission of the 11 to go preach (I realized I didn’t address this as soon as I clicked “submit comment.” You are absolutely right on that. We are called to preach with what knowledge we have been given from Christ.
However, I still hold that sending people out into the world to preach when they have a cursory knowledge of Christianity or the Bible isn’t wise. That’s a concern of mine with NS and other large churches…I don’t feel like the training is there. I have had conversations with different members and asked similar questions and they have given me the same answers…almost as if they were regurgitating what Perry had said from the stage the week before. I’m not saying that ALL NS’ers aren’t capable of abstract thought or forming their own conclusions about scripture, but it seems that the majority would be limited with just enough info as they have heard out of PN’s mouth.
However, with the info you shared about the new standards of home groups, my hope in member training is rising.
David,
I think you are a little confused as to the nature of sheep. If you know anything about sheep, you know that they are dumb, mindless wanderers who go wherever the other sheep go. They would walk right off a cliff were it not for a fence or shepherd to tend them.
David, you, I, Seth, Perry, Cooper, Furtick, Duncan, and everybody else you know is a sheep. We are, by nature, dumb animals who, by God’s grace, have any sort of knowledge or tendency towards him. All we like sheep go astray. Because of our nature, His word IS offensive to us. This is the old ways of the sin nature bleeding through.
But, because of his mercy, the Good Shepherd tends us back to himself when he sees fit.
Albert,
No, I fully know the nature of a sheep. My point was to show a difference between a sheep and a goat. A sheep is dumb, but smart enough to listen to it’s master when He beckons the sheep. A goat will be a goat even when the Master calls. This is/was my point.
David,
I understood, I guess you and I have differing opinions about the nature and intelligence of sheep.
Albert,
Can you not clearly see the difference between the spiritual nature of a sheep and goat in relation to comparing these animals to people?
The one thing we must agree upon is a goat.
Perry Noble is an example of a goat because he rebels against the requirements of a pastor see I Cor 13, Titus 1, and 1 Timothy 3. If Noble were acting like sheep then he would heed his Master’s voice and follow, thus repenting and submitting to what God said to do. I call him a goat because he refuses to submit to what Jesus clearly said to do. The Bible is clear about a pastor’s requirements to live a holy life having a good reputation, being humble, etc… see the Scriptures I listed here.
I can not make my points any clearer or simple to follow.
Lauren,
I was going to tell David J that I thought it was a good thing that the home groups studied Noble’s sermons. That is fairly customary and useful. Then you say that you don’t often do that, which is disappointing.
MW,
Did you notice who Lauren’s home group has been studying? Rob Bell, who is preaching directly to them on video.
Where’s the government and emphasis on doctrine and standards? Where’s the advantage in having leaders listening to folk like Driscoll, yet those same people let their flock feed from people like Bell, who Driscoll thinks is a heretic?
David,
I do see your point about goats vs. sheep. I have since you first wrote it.
The problem I think I have with the analogy is that when you call Noble and everyone else a goat is that it gives them an unbelieving connotation…
“A sheep hears the Word of God and submits to His authority while knowing they are not perfect, but the goat hears the Word of God and scoffs at it always pointing the finger at the Sheep, who is striving to be godly, while reminding everyone that no sheep is perfect. The goat refuses to change and leave sin behind, while the sheep will focus on change and repent from sin.”
I’m sorry, but I just haven’t seen that demonstrated with Noble that Scripture requires, but (and I hate to use their defense) who has? The reason I prefer to call every human being a sheep is because that is what I see in Scripture.
Isaiah 53:6 “All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way…”
Numbers 27:17 “to go out and come in before them, one who will lead them out and bring them in, so the LORD’s people will not be like sheep without a shepherd.”
These present sheep as dumb and mindless unless a Shepherd tends them. I don’t see in Scripture when Christ differentiates us as willing vs. unwilling. I only see unwilling by nature.
I’d like to see a reference if you know of one.
Seth (re: today’s 10:38am post),
Sure the church is not just a building. In fact, it’s not a building at all. It’s the collection of believers throughout history. On this, we agree.
But, I find it ironic that you’re making this argument. NS seems to be defining and defending church as a building. Isn’t this why so much of their resources are devoted to spending a lot of money to make it attractive, state-of-the-art, and un-churchy for the unchurched who will go to church there? They seem to have an OT view of the church where lavish expenses are doled out as if they were building a temple. It’s not progressive, contemporary thinking – it’s ancient. And in my view wrong.
Hasn’t NS actually turned the building into the church, precisely in reverse to your fine post about beaches? If the church isn’t a building, then why so much cash devoted to it?
Tommy F
Ok, so how much money has your church paid out to building projects over the years? My point being that there are 2 definitions to the church, the one that is of believers and the term used to describe buildings. most people at NS that I know on staff see the body of believers as the primary church. At the time most of the traditional churches of today were built were they not built lavishly for their time? Who had the biggest and best organ? Who had the bigger steeple? Who had more fancy stuff for the youth or more games or a nicer gym? And I have seen some pretty big traditional churches out there to, so I guess every church out there is in the wrong. I mean, when phone first became popular, do you not think some churches wanted them and some did not because they thought phones were wrong? So Tommy, if you don’t want them to meet in a state-of-the-art building, where would you have them meet? In a run down old building where nobody would want to go? Yes they dole out alot of money on stuff but they also give alot back to the community while also keeping their salary around and under half of their total income. Which is pretty good consider how many people they have on staff. I have done projects for traditional churches where almost 70% of the money they had went to 4 staff members. And this church is not a small church either, it is one of the larger churches in my town. The other things they spend money on is flowers (alot is spent on this) office supplies, power, phone, and water bills, and more. So, is this stuff wasteful spending too? I think the same standard applies to all churches, not just NS. I know for a fact that twice in Elevations churches history (only 3 years) that they emptied the bank account twice, and both times was for evangelical purposes. I also think that churches should spend money to reach people and to help their members out (They pay for your dinners during membership classes, marriage counseling classes, and other classes they have) they spend money on other things too. I also hold true with NS’s belief that alot of money should be poured into the youth of the church. Remember in today’s world, kids are being attracted by all sorts of hip, new age things that are really bad. So I belief also that the church should be better than these because God is greater than these. In today’s world, it takes alot to keep kids attention, to have them fully devoted to Christ. I know, I have worked with kids and have seen how they are, for them, Church is just Sundays and sometimes wed. nights. But back on topic, No, to them, the building is a building where you can bring unbelivers to hear the Gospel. I think they way NS does church reinforces the fact that it is not about a building (Home Groups is a good way to prove that since some fellowship and discipleship are done outside of a building).
Seth
I am not sure if there’s a question in your post or not. Here’s one: How much has my church spent? Who knows. It’s been around a while.
We disagree more than we agree on this matter. There are NOT 2 definitions for church. There’s one – the gathered community of believers.
Of course, this is very traditional thinking, I know. Call me old. But, I’ll stick to the biblical understanding, rather than the New 2009 Reformation Perry Noble definition of 2 definitions.
When it comes to these matters, I’ll stick with Paul rather than Perry.
MW:
Your post is interesting. Are you saying we shouldn’t name names? So, I suppose direct quotes are out of bounds?
Isn’t it clearer and more helpful to be as specific as possible when discussing these matters? I find it frustrating when PNoble is vague about churches. I’d prefer he just name a church or pastor.
What do you think?
Tommy F
I did not say my definitions were biblical, it was merely showing that there is more than one. My point to all that was who cares what NS spends it money on in some areas. Your church has spent who knows how much, so if you don’t know where their money went, why should you care where NS goes, from what I see, it goes where it should go. Also, I think a church should have cutting edge technology if it is used right and I see that being the case. But you do know some people (not always christians) use the word church to mean the building, not the body of believers. I wholeheartly do agree that the church is meant to be a body of believers, not a building.
Seth:
Right. Some people use the term church to refer to a building. They are wrong. And informed Christians should correct them.
I realize Seth that you never see anything wrong with anything NS does. I think there pretty typical in this regard. A lot of churches use too much money on facilities. It’s just that NS appears to be a major culprit.
What you have to look at is not the amount of money they spend but the percentage they spend compared with the percentage of what other churches spend their money on.
And then of course aplly that to what Scripture saysand come to a conclusion.
Sorry, I must have read past the passages that speak about budgeting issues for technology and buildings.
This is precisely my point. In the first Century, the concern was survival. It was for needs, not extravagance.
My conclusion is simple: many churches (and again NS is just the most outlandish culprit) spend an excessive amount for a few hours of entertainment – oops – I mean worship.
Seth,
Forget about counting money. I think what Tommy is getting at is that NS does not really encourage people to go out and witness. Their assignment is to bring people back to the building. Everything is centered around the evangelism that happens in their building by their paid professionals (Charalambous excluded, of course).
Note Cooper’s over-the-top charge that unless you brought someone to his building for him to preach at, you are essentially unsaved.
That is building-centered.
Seth – You said you knew for a “fact” (though I doubt you’ve seen a bank statement) that Elevation emptied the bank account for Evangelical purposes. I know for a FACT that they pured over six million dollars into the renovation of their new facility. Is that what you mean by “Evangelical” purposes? I could point you to some other FACTS about what Elevation has done with their money that are even less justifiable than that. Trust me when I say, Elevation is not the standard you want to hold up when speaking about integrity on financial matters.
2.) Newspring put well over 10 million dollars into the new children’s facility. Is that not *a little* extravagant? Couldn’t they have bypassed the hide-away football field? Was that completely neccessary?
I also disagree with your views on youth ministry. You are teaching them at a young age that church is somehwere to come be entertained. When they are no longer enterteined, they will stop going. Does this mean church should be boring? No way, but instead of trying to immulate popular entertainment and reinforce the age-old myth that God is boring, so we have to add to it to make it more appealing, let’s teach our children that the Gospel is completely exciting. Or do you not believe that yourself?
By the way – they video is hilarious. When the person shouts out “Jesus”, it clearly throws Cooper for a loop…like he hadn’t even considered that. I’ve watched that moment like 50 times.
James Downing:
It’s always funny when the audience knows the correct answer, but the speaker doesn’t. It reveals a lot about BCoop that teenagers knew the answer, but he didn’t. I think they ought to rethink their youth leadership.
I wonder if happens a lot to BCoop. I know from first hand experience he ignores answers he dislikes.
James Downing
My point exactly, churches should go above and beyond what other things do to get and keep the attention of kids. They should make Jesus more fun and exciting then any tv show or music video out there. So I have to ask, How do you think they should do that? I am assuming that pouring money into youth is not your answer, so what is it? How would you make help show your youth that Jesus is more exciting than everything else out there? Put them in a run down shack with not budget and make them raise money to go on trips like I have seen several (though not all) churches do? Yeah, that keeps a kids excitment level up and their attention.
Also, I do not think the money they spent on the building is extravagant. Again, do you want your kids in a run down building they hate being in b/c it is boring? They have a large number of kids come each week so they need a large building. Are you an architect? Do you know how much each building material costs? They neede more space and they built for it. I see no problem with that. Also, the Student ministry building I see no problem with that. It is open during the summer so kids can come and hangout, study the Bible, and there are Bible studies that go on there during the day. It is a good place for kids to be, or would you rather them stay at home alone, get into drugs, get into trouble, or just pretty much be bored? Again, with the size NS is, the buildings have to be big, and for big buildings comes big money. Are you suggestioning the church stay small by not spending money on buildings it needs because it has out grown its currect facilities? Tell that to the church in the book of Acts that grew 3,000 in one day.
I’ll get to the rest in a minute…but did the Church in acts build a 10 million dollar facility with a retractable football field, too. Musta missed that.
Ok, aside from the rediculous notion that the church in Acts grew because it spent the the money it had on a new facility…
I think the church in Acts had it right. They used the truth, not entertainment to grow the church. As far as the kids go…what if there is no budget? What if there is only a run-down shack? Can God not work in that?
How would I teach them that Jesus was exciting? I’d tell them about the time he gave His life for their sins. THAT’S exciting! Listen, I have children, so this isn’t all hypthetical for me. I am searching for a church home right now, and I do not want a children’s ministry that just reinforces the throw-away nature of pop culture. You’d be surprised how enthralled kids can get just sitting in the floor listening to a Bible story from someone who cares about the subject. While I understnad the theory behind entertaining the kids, I also think that in the long run you are doing them a disservice. It makes them believe that church is about being entertained. We should teach them from the earliest age that church is not about us, but about Jesus.
And finally, I still think the hideaway football field was extravagant. What does me being an architect have to do with anything?
I did not day God could not work with it, but if you HAD the money for better facilities would you not use it? I did not say it grew because it had a big building, I meant it as after it grew, it needed more space.
I have worked, and still work with kids in the middle school/high school range. They get bored and distracted easily and listen on Sundays but don’t apply it to the rest of the week. I have seen how little they care no matter how many times you tell them Jesus died for them, they understand and grasp the concept but still don’t find it interesting. I know how little kids in Middle school can pay attention for long periods of time, I have taught after school Karate at a middle school and trust me, they have a hard time paying attention. Same is in church, they have a hard time paying attention and overall alot of them do not care because it is either irrelevant or boring to them.
On the note of the football field, doesn’t the Bible instruct us to stay healthy and take care of our bodies? And it also instructs us to fellowship with one another right? So, having a field for the kids to play on during the summer, to get a workout on and to build friendships. Or would you rather kids stay at home, be lazy and unproductive, or get into drugs or something else bad? (I do understand that not all kids this happens to) Also note here that as I said before, that is not all they will be doing, there will also be a daily Bible study. So, if a church has the money to spend on a youth buidling that is productive, why not spend it on the youth? If you do not have the money to have what NS has it makes you no less blessed.
The fact about being an architect means that how do you know how much a building costs to build in todays world? One that can hold as much as they need it hold? Do you have that information? Maybe 10 million is a good deal for a building like that, maybe they could have spent more money but could not fit it into the budget. So, do you know what the going rate for a building that size is? I have seen traditional church build new buildings in the past that were multi-million dollar buildings, I have also seen churches build youth building that were state-of-the-art but too small and quickly out grew them.
Also, for a FACT, I did see a bank statement from when they emptied their bank acount when I attended the THR3E conference, they keep pictures of it to remember that they acting completely on faith that God would replace the money they spent on outreach so they could stay open. And no, the building is not the time I was referring to.
Seth – To be honest, i would have agreed with you on the youth ministry stuff no more than a few months ago. They do get distracted easily. However, I think the methods you are talking about only feed that weakness rather than challenge it.
The distinction you draw between building a crazy youth building and becoming a lazy junkie just isn’t realistic. There are tons of things to do with kids that don’t cost a dime. Now, that being said, I don’t have a major problem with NS building a teen center for Anderson, but I do think perhaps there could have been wiser uses of money, especially in this economy. I am afraid that they will become what Perry has always said about the “Steeple People”. With so many people out of work, homeless, hungry…aren’t you kind of giving them the finger when you do something so extravagant and materialistic? Then again, maybe they’ll give away food there…but I doubt it.
AS far as how do I know the building cost 10 million: because they told me. I’m not defending tradtional churches on this point either. I know churches who spent over 100 grand on an organ. I definitely think there are better things we could be doing with our resources. I also understand that Newspring didn’t have to go into debt to pay for the building, and that is to be commended. As afar as Elevation goes, I don’t blame you for beleiving what they told you…and I’m not completely calling them dishonest…but, you’ll probably be happier not digging into their finances to much. Was it the Easter Egg drop that emptied the bank account?
Downing
I thought there would be something we would agree on. I do have to say that Having the youth building also gives there friends a place to bring unsaved friends during the summer so they can make friendships and relationships and witness to them. I know of a ton of outreach things that NS does in the community. They help tremedously. So I do not think it is giving the middle finger to the community. Again though, the churches he means are those that either do no outreach or those that do not preach the Word of God, and they are out there. Also, that point about kids being good and kids becoming bad was meant to be extreme opposites. Also, one of the Elevation times was the easter egg drop, but there was another time that was productive, but I can’t remember what it was and can’t find my notes, if can find them, I will let you know.
James Downing,
There is no “retractable football field” at NewSpring. There is a small grass field outside the youth building. If you drive by you’ll see that it is flat and mostly green, but it’s just a regular grass field.
People, please don’t believe everything you hear about this church. I’ve heard so many untrue rumors. Everything from “The pastor took off his pants to make a sermon point,” to “They baptized two lesbians together,” to “They hand out condoms at church,” to “Perry Noble bit the head off of a live cobra one Sunday.”
OK, I made up the last one. But I have heard all of the others, and they are all untrue. There is a lot of gossip circulating around the community. Please don’t believe it.
I think spending some money on a youth program that reaches out to at-risk teens would be a better use of any church’s funds, rather than a multi-million dollar facility.
All this does is teach teens that the focus is them, rather than God.
Duncan
I was in a hurry the other day but after listening to Furtick talk, I see nothing wrong with his plan, In your quotes you failes to quote the part where he talks about training up the congregation and sending them out to change lives. When you leave out important information like that and make the quote above sound like it is all he said and all together to make a point, I have a problem. because if you list the rest of the information he gave about what they will do, you will understand what he meant by the church not being for you. So I am just curious how many people listened to the video? I have actually listened to the entire sermon.
Tommy F
That is their outreach, it is a cool place to bring kids where they can have fun, invite nonbelievers, and build relationships with the nonbelievers. They can also fellowship with each other and have room to study the scriptures through Bible studys and still be able to stay fit by being active on the feild. I think it provides great chances for outreach to the community.
Oh, sorry. I thought it was in-reach rather than outreach.
I still think church should be about sending people out rather than bringing them in. It truly reminds me of the 1950s style evangelism and revival techniques that PNoble and friends always malign.
For such a progressive reputation, NS is very, very traditional. Shhh, don’t tell anyone. They might get the wrong impression.
To hear Noble tell it, other churches are old fashioned and “do” church wrong, while his does it right. Seems to me they have the same plan.
Seth, must I quote his entire sermon? I embedded the video, so it’s not like I don’t want people to watch it; in fact, I recommend that people watch it.
I’m not surprised that you don’t find it a problem. He’s being used here as an example of the Turnstile Church. The nice thing about the label is that it’s not necessarily negative. Look at my definition; it’s exactly what SF describes and what you like. Embrace it.
Can anyone explain why he put air quotes around “doctrines of grace”? Does he not by into them himself? Paul spent a whole book explaining the doctrines of grace, so how can one possibly get obese on them?
@ Downing “Then again, maybe they’ll give away food there…but I doubt it.”
Again, volunteer. Know this first hand. Not to mention the times during the year they fill up the local food banks but NS gives struggling families money for groceries and utilites.
Looking for a church home….interersting. Have you tried a certain church here in town? I hear they have an awesome children’s program.
Waoh, woah woah… JT – The last time I was there, they were building the youth building. Perry Noble himself told me that there was a retractable football field. Did he lie?
If it’s not true, that’s great. But, it wasn’t a rumor, it was from Perry himself. Why would he say that if it weren’t true?
Lauren,”Again, volunteer. Know this first hand. Not to mention the times during the year they fill up the local food banks but NS gives struggling families money for groceries and utilites.Looking for a church home….interersting. Have you tried a certain church here in town? I hear they have an awesome children’s program.”
Correct me if I wrong, but in our experience is that you must be a member of NewSpring to get assistance with you rent and utilities. When we were members of NewSpring, my brother-in-laws wife needed help with here rent. When we talked to NewSpring we were told that since they were not members NewSpring could not help, but they would give them some info were other agencies could help them. Yes, NewSpring does give food to food banks, but should not NewSpring be doing more to help the community vs. spending millions on buildings? It would be a greater outreach to help the poor vs nice expensive buildings.
I know Redemption in Greenville helps everyone regardless if they are members or not.
James Downing
Thats was part of Perry’s joking around. I have heard him joke around many times about things like that, one of the things he joked about was the tailgate baptism until they unexpectantly did it. Why don’t you go look at it yourself and see what you think?
Duncan
That point of that was that people who sit around all day and learn but do not apply it or people who learn all day and do not do anything to advance the Kingdom of God (that would be things like outreach, witnessing, helping others, things of that nature). If you have knowledge and use it, good for you, but that is really what he means with all that.
Tommy F
outreach vs inreach. Lets see, the kids can GO OUT into the community to make friends and build relationships, and/or they can bring friends to church to make friends and relationships. I do not think it is just in-reach/outreach going on here, it is a mixture of both. However, I see outreach as reaching out to any churched or unchurched people and I view in-reach as helping people in the congregation. If you have a mixture of christian and unchristian friends and they are bored during the summer, is a place like the church not a good atmosphere to be able to go and hangout. Not only can they make more friends and fellowship and such, it is a good safe place to go and hangout.
Downing,
Sorry, but it looks like you fell for a joke. Did you also believe it when Noble said he was asked by the WWE to do a tag-team event with Clayton King?
They did tag-team together, but they wore masks…
Maybe he was joking. He didn’t say it in a joking way, so maybe the plans just changed, or maybe he was just dreaming. Eh, whatever.
The point was that, just like the traditional churches, they put a huge sum of money into a building. I’m sure every church would also say they built the building for the community, so there is really no difference. I don’t think it’s definitely wrong to put millions into a building, I just wonder if there is abetter use of a churches resources.
@ David
I hate that your brother in law’s wife was not able to get help through NS. So I hoped it worked out for her. I have heard “NO” myself before and I am a member. It was those time I believe God was teaching me to depend on him and I was provided for with another outlet. I have never needed groceries, utilities or rent but I do request things and not every request was answered with “YES”. Correct me if I am wrong but no church out there says “YES” to every need help call that comes in. But God answers every need help call and to me he is the ulimate provider anyway.
And for the record, I know of a lady who was helped tremendously in Feb 2009 that was a non-member. I hope your brother in law’s wife is doing better now.