Let’s show Satan a little respect
Posted: July 27th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Devil, False Teachers | 37 Comments »I don’t know what happened at Gauntlet in Florida last week, but Brad Cooper’s Twitter seems fuller than usual of retweets from his tweet peeps who are eager to stomp the Devil as if he were the designated villain in a WWF production. If you follow any NS tweets or blogs, you’re familiar with the anti-Devil braggadocio, but this particular tweet was more over the top than usual:
Not to sound bragish but the small group im in is about to skubala all over satans face when we get home, real talk.
This small group planned to use Satan’s face as their lavatory. (For an earlier discussion of skubala-related things, check this post on scatological theology.)
Think about that. Do they suppose that Satan would really mind that kind of treatment? That’s like saying I’m going to punish my dog by rubbing his tummy.
Besides the illogic of the statement, we should be careful about blaspheming the Devil. Here’s why:
- God tells us to respect him. 2 Peter 2:10-12 tells us that not even the angels talk trash about Lucifer and other fallen angels.
Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand.
This is not to say that the Devil is good or deserves respect. He is God’s magnificent and powerful creation, and warrants our respect on that basis. It’s such an important point that God warns us twice to be careful about how we speak of Satan. Jude 8 uses almost identical language to describe similar disrespect:
These dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings.
We must treat the Devil cautiously, not because of any value inherent in him, but because God told us to.
- Our fight is defensive, not offensive. Look at the language describing spiritual warefare in Ephesians 6. We don’t charge the Devil’s lines. We are to quench his attacks and stand our ground. Having stood our ground we … stand. The armor of God is not designed to defeat the Devil (in the sense of offensive victory), but to prevent the Devil from defeating us.
- Bad people like to beat up on the Devil. Not only does Peter warn us against slandering Satan, he tells us something about the character of people who tend to do this. In 2 Peter these men are false prophets and teachers. In Jude, they are secret deceivers. Peter is giving us a clue. If you can’t discern anything else wrong with their visions and revelations from God, watch what they say about the Devil. It seems counterintuitive, but it’s what Peter said.
Great post, JDuncan.
These tweets are immature and ignorant. BCoop shouldn’t be promoting this, he should be correcting it.
I guess his Bible doesn’t have James 4:7: “Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.” He needs to teach these youth, not mimic them.
Satan is not like a Ouija board that you play with and then put back in the box. He is the adversary. Our attacks shouldn’t be s#!t, but rather Scripture.
What the NIV translates as “celestial beings” in II Peter 2:10 is δόξα in the Greek. It literally means “glory”. It can also mean “dignity”, “honor”,
glorious”, “praise”, or “worship”.
δόξα is used 170 times in the New Testament. 168 times it is translated as one of the above (OK, John 12:43 is usually translated as “approval”.
There are two schools of thought on how δόξα should be translated in II Peter 2:10 and Jude 1:8 (the two out of 178 that aren’t translated as above). Historically, δόξα was translated as “dignitaries” (KJV) in these two verses. More recently, modern translators have used “celestial beings” (NIV), or something similar, to denote that δόξα refers to supernatural beings.
All that’s to say that it’s a pretty tricky bit of translating and interpreting, so I wouldn’t stand too firm on your defense of the devil, if I were you.
Especially considering, you know, the entire context of the Bible.
I won’t comment right now on respect for Satan, because I haven’t had time to think it over or study it…
I will comment on Cooper’s immaturity. This guy is just classless and profane. Period. I know the excuse will be “Well, Paul used that word.” Sure he did, but it wasn’t in a haphazard juvenile style, for the purpose of sophmoric humor. I would absolutely not let this guy teach my children.
What will NS and Brad Cooper do “if” Satan is allowed to accept these challenges? I think they might should read about what happened to Job.
It’s just more proof how Brad Cooper should not be any type of pastor. But then again, Satan likes relevance because it belittles the Word of God. The antics coming from Cooper and NS are shameful at times, and display a spirit of rebellion, worldly desires, and worldly justification rather than being built upon the sole foundation of the Scriptures. So again, would Satan mess with this mess? I think Satan likes the cussing, AC\DC used to glorify God, bamf, etc.. that spews from NS’s leadership.(Notice I pointed out the poison coming from NS…)Proverbs 16:18.
I posted this not to bash NS’s leadership but to make them think.
@stevenfurtick — if someone is wrong and you know them – talk to them. If you dont know them – pray for them. IF YOU CANT DO EITHER – SHUT UP.
I added emphasis on the last part for everyone on here
Let that sink in a little!
Man, I’m actually agreeing with you guys lately. This is bizarre. Growing up I used to hear the “stomp satan out” sermons and sing the songs. I didn’t realize until later how blasephemous it was. I came from a very Bob Jonesish church growing up and they said this stuff all the time.
I had a really demonic experience that brought me to Christ. It was something that lasted for months. After going through it I would never speak flippantly about him again. In the mean time I pray and try to keep my ear away from his lies. I have no boast over Satan in and of myself. There is nothing I can do to him. He could sift me like wheat if God let him. God is the only one who can protect me from him.
Anthony,
The problem is this:
furtick’s words are not scripture. so I wouldn’t throw them around as if they carry authority. Use scripture, it’s much stronger.
The purpose of these posts are for you, and hopefully someone who does know furtick to approach him.
Besides – that tweet is pretty much saying, “if I’m wrong, I don’t want to hear about it from just anyone, but somebody who knows me.”
- which is kind of ridiculous. The Holy Spirit can only convict through friends?
That logic doesn’t work –
Should we only listen to podcasts or read books from people we know?
Of course not.
James Dowmning,
Be careful not to judge this one thing over the good that is going on there. Brad speaks to those kids in their language and that is not a bad thing. He reaches them that way. Youth pastors get blamed for being immature a lot. The problem with that is that people don’t understand the need to speak on that level as a youth minister. If I spoke like R.C. Sproul to my kids they wouldn’t get half of what I was trying to teach. Become like the culture as Paul admonishes us to do. I don’t agree with the Satan comment, but there are tons of churches out there that make this mistake, yet still get the gospel right. Not saying it’s right or ok, but don’t get too hung up on this one issue. There is some awesome stuff happening down at the gauntlet as well as at NS on a weekly basis. Kids are being saved and the gospel is being proclaimed. I’m not at the gauntlet but I read the updates.
Point 2 is flat out false.
The Armor of God is primarily defensive in nature, but there is a sole offensive weapon provided to believers in battling satan.
Take up the Sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God.
This was the offensive weapon employed by Christ in the wilderness, prior to his ministry when he faced satan and temptation. He employed the Sword of the Spirit, and “quoted” scripture each time to satan.
The Word is that powerful.
James gives the order we are to follow:
1) Choose (submit to) God.
2) Resist satan, and he will flee.
If you reverse this order, you will fail, for you battle satan on your own.
Christ submitted to God (step one)
Christ resisted satan, with the Sword of the Spirit (step 2).
And satan left.
This blog is so spot on when it claims the falsehood of PN and company (add Seth Godin and Tony Morgan, though the latter got his butt kicked out of NS, and cons folks independently now).
But this blog is false to the word of God regarding offensive weapons to fight satan. They exist, were provided, and should be employed dramatically.
To change direction somewhat, it is always ill advised to refer to the devil such that he becomes a caricature. This is exactly what Satan wants!! There are forces at play in the spiritual realm (both good and evil) of which we cannot possibly fathom.
Satan asked Jesus for permission to sift Peter like wheat. How does BCoop not know that Satan may have asked Jesus for permission to do the same to him? And Peter, even after being with Jesus personally for the better part of 3 years, could not withstand the sifting he got from Satan then. And it was only through time and repentence that Peter became a great and humble leader in the early church.
And BCoop wants to talk about defecating on Satan’s face? Unfortunately, such arrogance can only be cured through the most difficult of trials.
BCoop should simply teach; “Flee from the devil, and he will flee from you”. Defecating on his face is not fleeing because you are still there and Satan knows it. He has got you where he wants you. At least he knows where to find you.
The idea of pooping on a face is just gross…and completely uncalled for. I see nothing in Scripture that advises us to do such a thing. If this were the only time he were profain, I may be more willing to let it slide, but it’s kinda the guy’s MO. I would absoltuely not want my children learning from him.
As far as being relevant to culture…you walk a fine line there. I don’t think Paul was ever relevant in the way you are talking about. As far as I can see, Paul was constantly confronting the culture, not blending in with it.
Sorry folks, I should read the post more closely. MW has the sifting wheat point exactly and his thoughts are well put. Tommy has James 4:7 stated correctly, I did not, but the gist should be the same.
James Downing,
I can tell you with certainty that if BCoop was my child’s youth pastor, I would feel sandbagged right now and he and I would be having a real “come to Jesus” discussion about it.
James Downing,
You have a good point, but that isn’t really what I am talking about. I don’t mean that you become like the culture in their sins. Yes, Paul absolutely confronted the cultural sins, but he was relevent. He debated among the learned (especially in Ephesus), worked among the workers, preached to those who were most likely uneducated, he asked Timothy not to be circumsized so that he could reach the ephesians. He used things like “to the unknown god” to get across a point to an polytheistic nation. He always spoke to the needs of the people (ephesus – He spoke about spiritual battle, Galations – he spoke about legalism, Corinth – about sexual and unity issues, etc.) He knew the people, knew the language and spoke it. Just saying that knowing a culture and dealing with it on their level is biblical.
Not disagreeing with you completely so don’t think I’m goign against what you are saying. I just see Paul becoming very much like those he is around, a jew to the jews and a gentile to the gentiles. He won’t touch certain foods in one place yet freely eats in another. The jews could have criticized him for eating what he ate in certain places I’m sure. The point was that he did it to reach the people and because he was free to do it. He didn’t go past a sin line, but he was relevant. Very relevant.
So my first post gets no response, eh? I thought you all wanted a serious theological discussion about NewSpring?
James Duncan, your argument that we should respect Satan because he is a creation of God is absurd. We ought to respect God for being the Creator, not a fallen angel that became His adversary.
Now, I do get the whole “respect your enemy” argument. However, what I don’t get is everyone’s fear of Satan. In the words of our friend Perry Noble: Satan is already defeated and now we are just running up the score. (not a direct quote, but close enough)
If you are a Christian, your eternal destiny is assured and you have nothing to fear from the Devil.
March – July 26th, 2009:
Pajama Pages disrespects and criticizes Perry Noble and NewSpring Church.
July 27th, 2009:
Pajama Pages tells us that we should not disrepect or blaspheme Satan.
…
No comment.
Hi, JT. Do you think Cooper should have made the reference defecating on Satan’s face?
JT,
“If you are a Christian, your eternal destiny is assured and you have nothing to fear from the Devil.”
Tell that to Job. In Job 1:1, he’s described as: “that man was blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil.”
I like the “resist” advice from scripture rather than the confront advice from BCoop.
I think I understand what JD is saying, and it’s ultimately a respect for God that should keep us from thinking more of ourselves than we ought when it comes to more powerful spiritual beings. If Michael the archangel would not dare to bring a railing accusation of his own against Satan, should we? Are we weak and sinful creatures in a better position to slander Satan than a mighty holy angel?
We have no idea how powerful demonic beings are and how utterly dependent we are on God for His protection from them every moment of every day. I know that as a believer that the devil can never separate me from the love of God, but I also know that he can make my life miserable if God allows it, whether for chastising or testing or whatever…having experienced a demonic attack in the past, I would never go out looking for a fight with Satan. I will pray for protection, put on the armor, and let the whoopin’ up to God. Don’t forget the seven sons of Sceva.
As far as the scatological reference: unwholesome talk, foolish talk, and coarse joking are SIN, period. If that’s the way kids are talking, they need to be taught God’s standards and THEY are commanded by God to repent. You can’t reach kids for Christ by participating in their filthy talk. If anything, you only confirm them in their sin and alienate them further from God. Woe to them who call evil good!
Tommy F-
You must have forgotten how the book of Job ends.
I was talking to a friend in India this summer about this macho-man UFC-match view of Satan. I’ve come to realize that it’s exactly what Satan wants and I think it’s one of his more common tactics among Christian men because it makes us focus on how much we hate Satan… how much we hate. If our thoughts are consumed with hate and violence (even for Satan) that is a lot of emotion and thought wasted when it could be spent on peace.
but… I think I actually disagree with you on point 2… I’ll comment on that later… maybe…
I would also like to request a little more information on #2. Maybe a follow up post?
Is it not the church that takes the offense against Satan? As Jesus saying the gates of hell cannot prevail over the church? I would think the church is in the better position to do that over a single individual.
@JT, if we had nothing to fear from the devil, then why does scripture tell us to draw near to God, resist the devil, so he will flee?
MW, you write, “Man, I’m actually agreeing with you guys lately.”
There goes the NS job that Tommy thought you were auditioning for.
Albert and Micah, yes, perhaps #2 is worth a followup.
JT,
No, I have not forgotten. I read it yesterday. It’s ending is quite dramatic, but I’m not convinced that your view of it is correct.
Sure, Job “gets” his “stuff” back x 2. But, where are his original kids? Dead. His complaining wife? Still around. God is vindicated (Job didn’t forsake God), and God vindicates Job (compared to his friends’ speeches), but the idea that Job proves the Devil should not be feared is absurd. Re-read the opening 2 chapters, apply it to a friend’s life, and then imagine yourself saying to that friend: “Don’t worry. You have nothing to fear. Your eternity is secure.” This reads as a cop-out to me. It seems to deny the reality of pain and suffering in the present.
I’d say that Job was better off in chapter 1 than in chapter 42. Said differently, if given the option, my guess (just a guess) is that Job would have preferred the adversary leave him alone (see Job 2:12-13; Job 3:11; 3:24-26).
JDuncan,
Get it posted quick! I’m intrigued!
There is a breakdown in argument number 2. What do you do with the sword? That’s an offensive weapon?
Duncan,
haha! I don’t know what to do now. I thought I had that job in the bag! My life is over!
hahaha!
JT, I apologize for not engaging your theological discussion earlier, but I was busy doing life stuff today. You know, I just don’t have as much time as some folk to sit around reading and commenting on blogs like this.
It’s absurd to respect Satan because he’s God’s creation? Not really. First, God tells us to. Second, God did a great job in creating Lucifer. He was truly magnificent (which was what led to his downfall). Look at how he’s described in Ezekiel 28:12-15:
Sounds breathtaking to me. It’s no wonder he can pass himself off as an angel of light.
It also means that there’s no contradiction in 2 Peter’s and Jude’s reference to him as a celestial being or dignitary.
Albert, you’ve probably already seen it, but the followup is here.
I’ve been doing some thinking about this post today. I actually think that the BCoop & youth view about defecating on Satan makes sense. You need to get past the idea that it’s a bit difficult to place excrement on an angelic being. But, once you get past that it’s perfectly normal for BCoop to promote this type of thinking. Remember this is “BAMF – man” BCoop.
He’s simply discussing the perfect combination of profanity and worship. I think he’s simply talking about holy shit. That would be quite a shirt to wear to church!
Tommy F-
The book of Job proves my point that we have nothing to fear from Satan, and it has nothing to do with Job “getting his stuff back.”
Satan needed God’s permission to afflict Job. He had no power over Job otherwise.
Also, see II Corinthians 4:17, among others.
Nothing to fear, JT? That’s cold. Tell that to his dead children.
Actually, Job is a pretty clear example of a defensive battle. The whole point was to see if Job would curse God. Job resisted the devil and didn’t.
The fact that God gave Satan permission meant that Job would have been powerless to attack the devil anyway. Victory over the devil in an offensive sense would have ended all of Job’s problems and thwarted the will of God.
JT,
I’m not sure the fact that the Devil had God’s permission to afflict Job is very helpful, when speaking of “fear” of the Devil. Job still had much to fear from the attacks Satan sent his way. Approved by God? Yes. Dreadful? Yes. (see Job 2:12-13; Job 3:11; 3:24-26).
You asked me specifically about the end of Job. I replied and explained why the end of Job helps my case, and you have no explanation to provide why it helps yours. So, why does the end of Job help your claim that we have nothing to fear from the Devil?
Ultimately, you’ve not addressed any of the points I raised. “Scoreboard.”
JT, along the same lines that Tommy is arguing, the United States was much better off at the end of World War Two than it was at the beginning of it.
Does that mean we have nothing to fear from war?
I first stated, “If you are a Christian, your eternal destiny is assured and you have nothing to fear from the Devil.”
Job illustrates this point, in that even though he was tormented by Satan temporarily here on Earth, his eternal soul was never at risk.
Satan was irrevocably defeated by Jesus’ atoning death. If you are a believer in Christ, Satan cannot defeat you.
Yes, Satan may afflict you in this life, but this life is but a vapor of eternity. Here’s the scripture again, in case you missed it: II Corinthians 4:17.
@ JT,
You said, “Job illustrates this point, in that even though he was tormented by Satan temporarily here on Earth, his eternal soul was never at risk.”
Really? What if Job chose to curse God and die? I would suggest that God had much to loose in this situation too.
As such I don’t really know if the book of Job is not so much about eternal life as it is in trying to probe a question. Can Satan penetrate the protective hedge that God provides? And by doing so, destroy a person’s relationship to God by destroying his faith?
Looking forward to other views.