Imparted Wisdom from Impart
Posted: November 3rd, 2009 | Author: James Downing | Tags: Elevation, Furtick, impart, Newspring, Noble | 40 Comments »Pastor Steven Furtick » Blog Archive » Married Guys Listen Up.
In this video from IMPART, Steven Furtick is joined on stage by special guest Perry Noble. The first thing that hit me after watching this video is that someone paid $700 to watch these guys sit around and talk. Apparently, being able to draw a large crowd to a church service makes you an expert on all things. For instance, from the video, here’s Noble on marriage:
The problem with some pastors marriages is you want your wife to understand you and she don’t. She loves you. She married you. She will never understand you.
Maybe this is true in some cases, but Perry doesn’t strike me as a particularly complex guy. I mean, here’s what he says just a couple seconds later:
We’re men. If it doesn’t have anything to do with sex we forget it.
Luckily for us, Perry doesn’t stop there. He continues to impart his valued wisdom. On women:
Two guys can get in a fight and five minutes later we can go to lunch and be best friends again. Two women get in a fight, they’re not even gonna talk in Heaven.
Man. I wish I had known that women were incapable of forgiveness and grace before I got married. Oddly though, In the past twelve years, I’ve found my wife to be the most forgiving person I’ve ever met. I guess if Pastor P is right, she’ll show her true womanly vengeful side soon enough.
Now, that wisdom alone would have been worth at least $700 to me, but believe or not, Perry shares more. On parenting:
(To an older pastor) How did you raise a little girl that doesn’t hate church? He said this, I wrote this down. He said, “I never talked negatively about the church in front of my little girl.”
That’s good. I do wonder if the opposite is true. Should Perry talk negative about his little girl in front of the Church? I mean, it does seem that every time she has a bathroom accident, he tweets it.
Now, I know that more was discussed at Impart, and I hope that there are subjects where Steven and Perry are more adept, but with Unleash coming up soon, Impart just finished, and who know what else after that, I just don’t understand the draw. What do you think these guys will say that is worth paying to hear? I think it all comes down to the large crowds and hoping some of that success will rub off. The critics are always accused of jealousy, but I think you have to be pretty envious of someone to pay $700 just to hear their secrets.
It’s kind of like dieting, I suppose. We all know how to lose weight: Eat less, exercise more. Yet millions of books and videos are sold each year that in some form or another tell people just that. We keep buying these products hoping that there will be some magic combination that will allow us to wake up and be the person we want to be… with little or no effort. My guess is that is the motivation for a large group of people that keep going to these conferences. Ok, I’ve read my Bible. I know what the Church is, and what it should be…but maybe, if I go to this one more conference, I’ll hear the secret that will bring me 10,000 members overnight.
Let me save you some money: It’s not gonna happen. Even if you follow Furtick’s advice point by point and do everything exactly the way he did it, your odds of getting similar results are almost non-existent. I think even he would tell you that, though if you really believed it, he would lose money.
Read the Bible.
Do what it says.
Be faithful.
Don’t measure success on a worldy scale.
Make all checks payable to James Downing.
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>>The problem with some pastors marriages is you want your wife to understand you and she don’t. She loves you. She married you. She will never understand you.
Maybe this is true in some cases, but Perry doesn’t strike me as a particularly complex guy. I mean, here’s what he says just a couple seconds later
Let’s not be nitpicky or mean here. I think we can all agree that it’s very difficult to understand the pressure a pastor faces unless you are a pastor yourself.
>>Two women get in a fight, they’re not even gonna talk in Heaven.
Man. I wish I had known that women were incapable of forgiveness and grace before I got married.
I’m not going to even attempt to explain humor to you guys again. Suffice it to say that men do tend to get over things faster than women.
What do you think these guys will say that is worth paying to hear? I think it all comes down to the large crowds and hoping some of that success will rub off.
In my experience, conferences like these serve 2 purposes:
1. The main sessions (when the speaker speaks to the whole crowd), he’s going to give some good advice, some wisdom, and a LOT of encouragement. It can be refreshing for pastors to get in a big room with other pastors to worship and get some encouragement and maybe an idea or two that they hadn’t thought of.
2. The smaller sessions are more targeted towards the different departments, and a lot of practical ideas are shared. This can be extremely helpful to church staff members that may not be professionals. It helps them learn some new skills.
I’ve never been to Unleash/Impart, but from the descriptions, that’s pretty much what it is. Unleash has 2 “main sessions” and a bunch of “breakout sessions”.
However, there probably is some truth to the idea that some pastors bring their church to a conference to hopefully have some success rub off on them.
James,
I believe your blog is awesome. I was forwarded by a friend and have been following and looking back for days now. Thank you for pointing out some of the things that are blatantly wrong. I have been saying some of these things myself for some time, but don’t have that Biblical knowledge or understanding to say this (working on it, but not there and don’t know if I ever will be, as God’s Word reveals new things to me every time i read it.)
To CC,
While you may not have to explain “humor” again, what you need to understand that while these are jokes they show PN’s personal opinion on these things. Men are only about sex, women are less forgiving and hold grudges for far longer than men. While these generalizations may be true, they hold no place in PN and SF’s opinion delivering. I’ve noticed that a lot of PN’s information lacks Biblical backing and is 90% opinion (as has been pointed out on PP multiple times.) PN tends to dig his own hole by going to places where he doesn’t need to go. There is a reason that most, if not all, denominations require some ordainment of leaders; PN is a prime example of that reasoning. “Pastor” Perry needs to open his Bible more and his mouth less at this point and maybe he can keep from going down the road of his friends.
CC:
What a sexist thing to write! Where is your proof that woman tend to hold grudges more than men? That is an offensive blanket statement. There is so much more to a person than their gender, like spiritual maturity, which would influence personality.
I would like to say that at unleash and at THR3E and i have heard many pastors of large churches say this, that even if you follow and copy cat exactly wht they do does not promise success. So yes downing, even Furtick and Noble would say that following them to the letter does not promies success.
Together for the Gospel 2010 is coming up. I am paying to go hear some faithful preachers and receive some good resources. I think it is worth every penny i am spending (and it is a big sacrafice for me). The entire conference will be nothing but preaching Christ and him cruficifed…no gimmicks, no forumulas, no new ideas, no church growth analysis, bashing other churches. It is Christ-centered, and saturated with the Gospel. Furtick and NOble are man-centered in their doctrine and that spills over into their conferences. I know they always say in their blogs that it is all of Christ, and him be the glory. But they spend just as much time if not more talking about themselves, their church, their series, wisdom or experience. I don’t have problems with paying to go to conferences, I just have probem with conferences that really at the end of day have nothing woth gathering to hear.
None of that is particularly offensive, IMO. It sounds like a bunch of cliches though. The reason people pay the $700.00 for the conference is to network. No better feather in a church planters cap than to be referenced in a tweet by PN or SF. It’s not different than any other business, mind you, though I dont’ really think church is supposed to be a business. I must have missed the part where Paul had a conference that cost a week’s pay to download his wisdom to others. I am curious though whether the money for the conference goes to SF or to Elevation.
Kelly,
First of all, never uttered the words “hold grudges”.
Second of all, I said “tend to”, which in English grammar will preface a statement that covers most, but not all, the subjects being referred to.
Third of all, the word “men” was the subject of my sentence, not women. As in, men get over things quickly. Whatever you inferred from that falls on you.
Scream offense all you want, but the genders are different. This is not a matter of debate … it’s simply the truth. Women get hurt more deeply and easily than men do, and when a person gets hurt (as opposed to angry), the wound runs deeper and takes longer to heal.
Maybe you’re one of the exceptions, but please don’t try to fabricate a sexism claim just to give everyone something new to beat up on Noble and Furtick over.
PS – I’d be no less “offended” if you were to say that women tend to be more willing to stop and ask for directions. Men have bigger egos than women. No use in trying to argue over it.
Anonymous,
Absolutely absurd. What’s wrong with having an opinion? At a conference that is ALL ABOUT the “Imparting” experience and the lessons learned from that experience, no less.
Wow.
Paul,
Good for you. Tell me though, how does one applaud a conference for not “bashing other churches”, then go on to say:
Furtick and NOble are man-centered in their doctrine and that spills over into their conferences … they spend just as much time if not more talking about themselves, their church, their series, wisdom or experience … I just have probem with conferences that really at the end of day have nothing woth gathering to hear.
Just curious.
Josh,
Sadly, you are mostly correct. Some go to get useful and practical tips for leadership, but a lot go because these guys (Warren, Stanley, Noble, Furtick) are their heroes.
But before we pass to harsh a judgement on them, it’d be wise ask ourselves how excited (and how much we’d pay) to meet our own heroes. For those on this blog, that’s probably be some combination of Spurgeon, Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, etc.
Question of the Day: Are you now, or have you ever been, a conference attender?
CC,
I guess it means on your definition of bashing. I do not believe it is bashing to read and hear a person’s belief, evaluate it with Scripture and come to a conclusion. I read and listen to furtick and noble and others, and make a conclusion. I do this with everyone, even those who I would be like -minded with.
I think it becomes bashing when you skip the reading/hearing and evaluating with Scripture, and jump right to the conlusion without the facts. I also think it is bashing when you demonize the one you disagree with.
NOw, i wish we could sit face to face, and you could hear my reading and evaluating. But, that’ snot possible. I have done this and have been doing well before I found this blog. I also do not demonize thse guys by calling them heretics or unbelievers.
Not a conference attender…but I cehcked out the one that Paul is attending, and it would be quite tempting if it were in my area.
Couldn’t fork over $250 for it, but it has all my favorite preachers.
CC,
Claim absurdity all you want. If I’m paying for someone’s opinion and experience, I want (especially when this is being presented by preachers) some Biblical backing. PN doesn’t know the Bible and therefore doesn’t understand how to use it to back up his experience.
Anonymous,
I assume, then, that you attended Impart? Surely you wouldn’t make a statement about the amount of Bible used at the conference without knowing, first hand, whether your statement is true or pure conjecture, right?
PN doesn’t know the Bible and therefore doesn’t understand how to use it to back up his experience.
Yeah, that’s where this conversation ends. Grow up.
Duncan
I attend conferences. Went to the THR3E conference, went to catalyst, and I am going to unleash. I have a few other conferences I wish to go to, but that I cannot afford to attend at this time.
too bad Downing. They are offering a group discout and they did have an early bird discount. What is really nice about T4Gospel is not only the preachers, but the free stack of good books you bring home is incredible. That alone pays for itself. YOu can also listen to all the sermons online for free. The other neat feature is that you get to join their network that allows you to know all the like-minded churches in your area.
Many conferences are a “look at what we have done and you can do to” motivation. T4G is, lets unify on the Gospel of Christ and HIm crucified.
Don’t know if you are familiar with David Platt. He is speaking there, not as one of the main guys. Don’t miss him if you can help it.
Question: what is it with all these conferences? We are the most highly educated group of Christians to ever walk the earth, but is our witness brighter or more dim than it has been in times past? I guess it’s debatable, but one thing is for sure: the amount of light we shine is not commensurate to the amount of information we ingest.
I guess Solomon might have lamented, “To the hosting of conferences there is no end.”
CC,
Obviously you are here simply to defend someone in particular. PN and SF’s inability to accurately ref the Bible to defend their ideology has been documented multiple times on this blog, not to mention the multitude of videos that are posted on youtube by NS itself. I have looked at many of those videos at the behest of my friends just to find that there is very little Biblical content and a lot of PN opinion. You are correct sir. This is where this argument ends.
Paul C
I do see your point. There are way to many conferences for sure…SOme are very helpful and many are a waste of resources. I will only defend T4G for one reason…it is a movement to unite around the Gospel. It is more than coming together for more knowledge, it is coming together to worship Jesus, understand the Gospel better, unite for Gospel-centered work, and mutually encourage one another in the faith. Check out http://www.t4g.org. and listen to any of the sermons but particularly R.C. Sproll’s on the Curse motiff of Scripture, and PIper’s on suffering and teh GOspel. YOu will be blessed.
CC,
why the tone, PN himself ridicules people who lean too heavily on the bible. you remember, the self gourging people who just go in and give the rest of the world the finger?
it is OK if he feels that being over bible reliant is a weakness, but we shouldn’t pretend that he fells differently that he states.
Mike
Though perry may say that, he does not say it for the reasons you accuse him of saying it for. He has no problem with people learning and reading from the Bible, where he has a problem with it is when it becomes or gets in the way of actually witnessing to people and helping the world. He has a problem with people who would rather just attend a Bible study and thats it. No going out to help people, no going out and witnessing to people, just sit around and study the bible. I have no problem with studying the Bible, but its when people study the Bible and gain all this knowledge and then dont use it, thats where I agree with Perry. Beacuse not going out and witnessing to people and helping people is sin. And Perry has the boldness to speak against it. That is the complete basis for all his comments to other churches. If you listen, he always says or includes or refernces or mentions that he is against churches whole ONLY read and study the Bible and who NEVER do any outreach, witnessing, or helping anyone. I have seen this first hand, I have experienced this, and I agree wtih what he says. Its unBiblical for a church to just sit around and ALL they do is read and study the Bible.
Seth,
I think you are repeating a common caricature of a religious person who studies but does nothing else. I really don’t know very many of these people in practice (in fact, I don’t think I know any). Most of the people I know who read and study the Bible actually do other helpful and meaningful things for others, even witness verbally as the occasion permits. You write as if these people who study and do are the exception and the rarity, which I contend they are probably not. But hey, it’s convenient to lump all religious people together for strawman purposes I guess.
JDuncan,
I used to go to alot of conferences when I was younger. I don’t anymore. They all are pretty much the same and most are a waste of time and money in my opinion. And because it is my time and money, my opinion would count.
Kietho
I grew up and live in a traditional town, with all traditional churches, I live in a part of the country, the south, that has tons of traditonal churches. In my experiences, yes, I do lump them together. My small town of 4500 people has over 20 churches in and around it. Of those 20 churches, I know of 4 churches that come together and partner together to help the community. I personally know just about one person that goes to each church, and have been to many of these churches. And I know from observation and study that many of these churches, more than half, do nothing for the community. They offer no outreach or help, they dont train people to go out and tell people about Jesus, they like to remain small and comfortable. And for the area around Newspring, I would say that would be true too. Now, like I have said, there are churches that do a good job of both studying the Bible AND outreaching or witnessing. But there are far too many churches that do pretty much little to nothing and need to be waken up. Again, im not saying all churches need this, and I do believe the number of churches for each area of the country that is like that varies, but for my area, it is a small number of churches. If hearing that offends anyone, maybe they need to evalute themselves because the call for churches to go out and help people and witness to people has not changed since Acts. And im not just going off at traditional churches either, I do know of some contemporary churches around here that need to step up on the outreach and witnessing. God has been teaching my lately to celebrate the success of different churches, to be kingdom minded, and I always have been, I just feel like he wants to teach me that. alot of the time, I have to go hunting for things from other churches to celebrate and praise God for, sometimes, its just right there out in the open.
I helped out our local group of churches distribute food to the poor or to anyone who needed it.It was great coordination by several churches over several denominations. These churches took up offerings to buy food and took up food offerings and then once every week they band together and give this food out to those who need it.
A while ago, NS took up a food offering for a whole day and filled 2 truck loads and a large trailer full of food to be given out to the local homeless shelters and places like the soup kitchen so that they may countinue to reach out to the community. Their food levels had become dangerously low, because the churches that normally helped supply the food either couldnt or had backed out of the deal to help supply these places.
A church in my town recently started a contemporary church in the downtown area. They go out every 2 weeks in the lower income side of town and have a barbeque cookout. They meet people, reach out to people, find out what the communities felt physical and spiritual needs are, and minister to them. They also have fellowship time before every service so people can come in, get some food, and fellowship with one another, or people in the community can come in and get a free warm meal, and stay around and get to hear the gospel preached.
NS this year announced that thier outreach program would be to go to every elementary school in anderson and give each kid who needs it a new pair of shoes and a book bag with school supplies, and also ask the teaches what kind of supplies they need for school and furnish it for them since they found out that teaches send a ton of money from their own pockets on school supplies.
There is a church in columbia that does Homeless for the homeless where they go and spend the night with homeless people, pray with them, minister to them , talk with them, buy them a good warm meal, and talk about their faith.
I love to celebrate the success of churches and ultimately the Gospel. Churches who do not do any outreach whatsoever are not Biblical. period. Just like churches who do not preach the Gospel are not biblical. One cannot preach the Gospel and then do no outreach and one cannot do all outreach with little to no preaching of the Gospel or growing/studying. They go hand in hand.
“Churches who do not do any outreach whatsoever are not Biblical. period.”
I hear this statement on blogs regularly. Where does the bible say that the “church” is supposed to serve the community? In Acts, all the the church benevolence was for the people in the church, not for every needy person anywhere. Paul also put limits on people in the church who were to receive benevolence, excluding, for example, widows under the age of 60 or those who had been married more than once. 1 Tim 5:9-11 As individuals, we might be called to charity, but I don’t think this notion that a central mission of the church is supply pens to local schools or build Habitat houses is a biblical mandate at all. I certainly don’t have a problem with NS or other churches doing these things, but I wouldn’t be so quick to judge a church that doesn’t as being “unbiblical.”
Josh
great point, my definition of outreach is anything from helping people out to witnessing to them, I classify witnessing or evangelism as outreach. That is why I say that to do none of it is unbiblical. The Bible does tell us to also love you neighbor as yourself, whether that presents itself as being nice to someone, meeting a physical need (which Jesus did before meeting peoples spiritual needs) or meeting someone spiritual needs. So, to clarify, by outreach I do include witnessing and evangelism. Hope that clears some things up.
Mike,
Tell the whole story.
Seth,
Thanks for telling the whole story.
keitho,
Not sure where you’re from, but 90% (or more) of the churches in my area do exactly what Noble describes … stuff themselves with Bible, pat themselves on the back for how much they know, and watch the community around them die and go to hell.
The vast majority of the remaining 10% fail miserably in their attempts at outreach because they don’t understand the community around them. A “non-Halloween, fall festival that just happens to fall on Halloween” doesn’t count as outreach, ya know?
Josh,
You are correct. The function of the church does not necessarily include meeting the immediate needs of the community. But it’s hard for a church to preach it to the individuals, but not practice it as an organization. Not impossible, just hard.
For the record, the command to be charitable has been severely neglected by pastors in the last 30 years. Not only is it a fantastic means of evangelism, but it’s just a nice thing to do.
And as Seth mentioned, outreach doesn’t always have to mean charity. In this regard, he is 100% correct that churches that fail to practice outreach need a wake-up call.
A great example of a charitable pastor is Rick Warren. He no longer takes a salary from Saddleback church, and is in the proccess of paying back all the money that the church has ever given him. He and his wife have also worked it to where they give 90% of what they make (remember he does make money from books and such) and live off the 10%. That is pretty impressive I must say. I once heard a Pastor say that if you want your church to be a giving and charitable church, the pastor must also be charitable and giving and must preach on giving.
Corner Coffee
I have tried to make sure they get the whole story on here in times past, and have been mostly unsuccessful.
i get it better now.
my interpretation = witch hunt partial truth
your interpretation = the whole story
i wonder how Jesus Christ on His throne sees it.
cuz, i see very little of the suffering servant in your guy, he seems to want to live his whole life in the whip in the temple” story.
but what do i know.
and Seth,
Rick Warren is a great example of almost everything, but which biblical saint do you see his best modeling?
Mike
Unless you go to or have been to newspring, then yes, its partial truth. IF you have been then good for you, but its still not that whole story you told. You did only tell part of the story, the part that reinforces your belief, so, yes, your interpretation is partial, but without the full explination, it is not truth, it is twisted to look like truth to make your point. And also, I think Jesus on His throne, based on what I read in scripture, would be saddened and angry at the churches that just study the Bible and do no outreach whatsoever. Since you want to use him as such a great example of giving, which he is, then I think you could agree with me that Perry Noble is right to speak the truth to churches that do no outreach whatsoever. And for the record, I never said they were a suffering servent nor was I giving an example of a suffering servant, I was giving an example of a charitable pastor, so no, you would not see it in any of the examples I gave.
Gee,
by that logic, the perception of a Muslim or JW that attends regularly is truth, huh, well OK.
i suppose my problem is that i am jealous that God seems to have provided a near perfect human to follow/ emulate/ defend, and all i have are people.
Mike,
You didn’t tell the whole story. You told part of it … incidentally, the part that made your point seem stronger.
As to the rest of your incoherent rambling, I can’t respond to it if it makes no sense.
Mike
Not sure what logic you are following with the whole muslim or JW thing.
And I NEVER said perry, or warren, or anyone was perfect nor near perfect, in my posts in the past I have said this because if I dont, my defending of truth seems to be a call that I think they are perfect. And notice I am defending what he said, because well, it is true. If it isn’t true, and God loves churches that just read the Bible and do no outreach please show me where Jesus said that, where he refused to help someone but instead just read verses to them and then went with his disciples and just sat around studying the bible. I just dont see it in scripture.
CC,
So if 90% won’t, and the remaining 10% can’t, then whose left? For someone who usually makes very insightful observations and points, this is a rather sloppy assertion on your part. Even Seth can highlight numerous churches he knows that are doing things. I’m just challenging the judgmental and generalized assertions that people from “successful” churches make about what the other half does or doesn’t do before their God. These people you judge may or may not owe God an explanation in the end, but they certainly don’t owe you one. I prefer to not lump people together simply because bible study groups and sunday school happens to be their bag.
Seth,
you said that if i did not attend NS, i could not know the truth about it. presumably then, people who do attend, and find it good, do know the whole story and thus the truth.
But by that logic, my friend in salt lake city has every right to outright reject my assertion that he needs Christ.
PN and SF seem to point at the temporal and physical a bit more that Christ instructed in Matthew 16. they seem to be comfortable appealing to the rebelliousness and pride that are so fundamental in the reason that we need a savior in the first place. i do not hear or see or hear of the taking up ones cross and death to self that Christ and the apostles said was needed.
Mike
Yes, your friend does have that right, everyone has that right. Hence the reason we are all sinners. If you tell an atheist that he needs Christ will he not reject the idea? That is his choice. Its called free will. So I guess my logic holds up.
Also, yes, peryy has preached about taking up ones cross before. Being someone who goes I have heard it first hand.
KeithO
I find it funny about judging other churches, yet regularly, Newspring is also judged on this site. So that logic also applies to them that they can’t be judges by anyone but God for they may or may not do. correct?
KeithO,
My comments weren’t being judgmental at all. Seth stated his experience, you said it was a caricature, and I backed his statement up with my own experience where I’m from. The argument here isn’t whether Bible study and Sunday School is wrong, but whether or not there are many churches that ignore outreach. There are.
So if 90% won’t, and the remaining 10% can’t, then whose left?
I said the “vast majority” of the remaining 10% fail in their attempts.
The remaining churches (less than 10 in my neck of the woods) are able to connect broadly in outreach to their community. They’re able to discern which outreach methods work, and which don’t. Incidentally (or not), these are the churches in the area that routinely have large quantities of people who not only make professions of faith, but participate in public baptism, and go on to become faithful and fruitful members of the church.
*BTW, the 90% and 10% are rough estimates based on my experience. They are, by no means, a precise representation. With hundreds of churches in my county, it’s hard visit each one. But I have visited a LOT of them.
These people you judge may or may not owe God an explanation in the end, but they certainly don’t owe you one.
I’m not demanding an explanation from them. But if Noble says they DO exist, and I know that to be true as well, I don’t mind backing his statement up.
Seth,
Are you referring to the church being judged on this site or the people who go to it? Not sure I want to speak for others, but my observation of this site is that its gameplan is pretty simple: PN et al says something (be it thoughtful, provacative, insightful, correct or outright ridiculous) in a public forum and its implications are discussed here. I don’t think any particular person or group has to be judged in this process. I certainly don’t judge you for your positions–in fact the way you are handling yourself admirably is evident in spite of the heat you sometimes take.
My wife and I made a judgment call regarding NS and decided we could do better. This in spite of the fact that I know quite a few people who go there, both respected friends and close family. I still respect my friends and my family is still close. I don’t judge them because NS happens to be their thing. It’s not my thing and probably will never be. And this has absolutely nothing to do with the people who go there.
CC,
Now we are getting to my point as you said,
“But if Noble says they DO exist, and I know that to be true as well, I don’t mind backing his statement up.”
My concern is that Noble feels compelled to talk about people (most of which he doesn’t know or what they actually do or say) in other churches and this somehow is to significantly advance his vision for NS. PN can do God honoring ministry at NS and never have to mention what other people do or don’t do in other churches. It should not even have to be an issue. It concerns me that some NS members pick up on this and often wave the same banner.
PN can do God honoring ministry at NS and never have to mention what other people do or don’t do in other churches
True.
Noble feels compelled to talk about people in other churches … It concerns me that some NS members pick up on this and often wave the same banner.
Also true. Although in my case I’m speaking out of personal experience, not parroting what a pastor says. But that doesn’t take away from your central point, which I tend to agree with.