Noble departs Christian orthodoxy, announces he’s staying put 147

Perry Noble took the unprecedented step of directly addressing criticism from the pulpit Sunday morning in response to Rosebrough’s and my critique of his Christmas Eve claim that God told him to preach that the Ten Commandments aren’t commandments. After having a week and a half to reconsider his error, Noble dug in his heels and reaffirmed his assertion that there is no Hebrew word for command. He also walked back NewSpring’s earlier categorical denial that he had ever used the N-word (“Perry doesn’t use that word and doesn’t address anyone in his life by such a word.”), suggesting that we did indeed hear him correctly and that it wasn’t the first time he’d used the word.

Before he addressed the problems with his sermon, Noble took a predictable swipe at his critics.

Fifteen years ago when we started this church, I had no idea that what I was going to do would be this hard. No idea. But I have learned that Christians can be some of the meanest, angriest people on the planet. And so, man, we have people saying…, and you’ve heard me talk about this before. “If you talk about how you don’t love cats again, we’re not coming back to the church. And if you talk about Clemson again, we’re not coming back to the church. And I don’t like it when you say sucks, or crap, or darn, or pissed.” [Laughter and applause.] I had someone email me on social media the other day and say that I cannot bring a friend to our church because I never know what you’re going to say.

And I want to be honest with you guys. I have a pastor’s heart, and my heart is that I wish that I could make everyone in the world happy. But you know what I’ve realized in 15 years of doing this? If I try to make you happy, I become fake. And if I become fake, I become a bad leader of this church. So the promise I’m going to make you as a church [applause] is you get the same guy on stage as you would get at dinner…. [Editor’s note: He doesn’t want to eat dinner with you.]

Listen, church, people are going to attack me. People are going to attack our church and the way that we do church. It’s just going to happen. Recently–I don’t know if you’ve seen this online–but recently there’s been some stuff said about how I say the Ten Commandments (our Christmas Eve services, by the way, were awesome, they were incredible), and some people said that I tried to rescind the Ten Commandments. I didn’t try to rescind the Ten Commandments. I simply declared that they are actually promises from God, because Ten Command…–that word command in Hebrew–it is not command, it is saying. I have resear… I have gone back and talked to people in Israel that confirm those things.

Let me just mention this while I’m at it. There’s been a lot of chatter online this week, and some of you may have seen it, and people saying that I said from this stage the N-word at our Christmas services. You’ve probably seen it. If you haven’t, it’s online; you can go look at it. But listen, don’t fight, don’t fight online. Fighting online is like peeing in the wind; it feels good at first, but everybody gets messy. [Laughter]

If you watch through the video, it looks like I said the N-word. Let me promise you something: that’s not the word that was in my heart. My words got jumbled. It’s not the word that was in my heart. It’s not the word that I wanted to come out of my mouth. It’s not the word that I’ve declared from this stage. My heart is for racial reconciliation. I love all races. Listen, when we get to heaven, every nation, tribe, tongue and language will celebrate who Jesus is together. [Applause] So, let me say this: If you watched that and you felt like I said that word, and you were offended by that, I am deeply sorry. Please know, that’s not what was in my heart, and that’s all we’re going to say about that, and we’re going to move on because we’ve got people to reach for Jesus. Amen? [Applause]

Noble’s statement from the 8:30 a.m. service is noticeably less forceful than their earlier statement that he had never used the N-word. Perhaps because he realized there are too many witnesses to his conversations to sustain an outright denial, Noble seems to concede that he has used that word in private (note the emphasis on not wanting to say it on stage) and that it had accidentally slipped out as he prepared to tell the punchline to the conversation he was having with his friend. My guess is that Noble uses the term affectionately so doesn’t see how using it would make him racist. (I’m not excusing that type of use, just saying that’s probably how Noble sees it.)

One thing I’ll credit Noble for is that as soon as he said it on stage he knew it was a mistake and stopped. He also kind of apologized for it, though he put most of the blame on the listeners who felt like they heard it rather than fully accepting the moral responsibility for having obviously said it. It was also a nice rhetorical flourish to wrap himself in the evangelism flag to put an end to further discussion: Stop talking, we need to win people for Jesus.

There’s much more that could be said about Noble’s N-word problem, though that’s not the biggest problem with his sermon or yesterday’s statement. While he saw his error and apologized for the N-word, Noble continues to see no problem with his rejection of the Ten Commandments, an error that he has now embraced twice (one in the statement from Jan 2, the second from yesterday’s service).

On Christmas Eve, Noble, perhaps unintentionally, stepped outside the boundary that defines biblical Christian faith. Yesterday, he declared that he’s not ready to come back.

From the outset, I’ve given Noble the benefit of the doubt on how he came to his conclusion that there are not actually any commandments in the Old Testament. The kernel of truth that grew into Noble’s big error was that the Ten Commandments, also known as the Decalogue (ten words), didn’t have a formal title. You can see the outline of what Noble’s Bible tutor was trying to teach him in the Terminology section of this Wikipedia article.

If we stipulate that the Wiki article is correct, we see that the terminology issue is limited to the title of the Commandments. Would Noble say that Boston College, which doesn’t use the word university in its title, isn’t a university like Clemson or USC? Of course not. The nature of the institution is described but not determined by its title. Whatever title anybody gives the Decalogue doesn’t change what they are: commandments.

Now, that’s all interesting, but it’s ultimately irrelevant. The only issue that matters is what the Bible calls the commandments, and it turns out that the Bible calls them commandments. The issue is so blindingly obvious that it seems unnecessary to actually have to spell it out, but people’s willingness to accept or defend Noble’s argument has surprised me, so let’s do this again and let the Bible interpret itself.

And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the rules that I speak in your hearing today, and you shall learn them and be careful to do them.” (Deut 5:1)

Ah, but statutes and rules aren’t commands, Noble might argue. Deut 6:1 makes it clear that they’re the same:

Now this is the commandment–the statutes and the rules–that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them.

Statutes and rules are an appositive, a restatement or renaming of the word that precedes them. If the Old Testament doesn’t really have a word for command, this verse from Deut 8:1 also becomes impossible to translate or understand:

The whole commandment that I command you today you shall be careful to do.

When we look at the ten commandments themselves, we see that they’re written as imperatives.

You shall have no…, You shall not…, Observe, Honor. (Deut 5:7-21)

The plain grammatical syntax of these verses shows that they’re commands. Looking at the New Testament, Jesus identified them as commands in Matthew 19:17.

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

Ephesians 6:2 also creates a problem for Noble’s premise.

Honor your father and mother (this is the first commandment with a promise) that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.

Paul distinguishes commandments from promises, though he points out that they are sometimes linked. Commandments are not promises, they’re commandments.

Noble’s mistake was to take a little bit of truth and apply it to the entire Old Testament and to each of the ten commandments. For example, he told parents they were wrong to teach that the Bible commanded children to honor their parents. As I argued in my previous post, the larger theological implications of Noble’s error are serious and heretical, which is why I and many others had hoped he’d correct his obvious error.

That he didn’t is a cause for serious concern. Noble preached a sermon that denied the heart of God’s law, which in turn eviscerates the entire gospel and denies the atoning power of Christ. Perhaps Noble departed orthodoxy accidentally, but he has refused the opportunity to come back.

His statement today suggests that he knows he’s wrong but he doesn’t dare discover the truth. Look again at Noble’s “defense” of his sermon:

[The Commandments] are actually promises from God, because Ten Command…–that word command in Hebrew–it is not command, it is saying. I have resear… I have gone back and talked to people in Israel that confirm those things.

He starts to say that he researched the term, but can’t quite bring himself to use that word. Instead of research, he went back to the source of his error–his friends in Israel. It’s as if he didn’t want to find any information that would undermine his thesis. Start with the desired conclusion, then work furiously to avoid anything that would contradict it. G.K. Chesterton described Noble’s behavior well: “To be wrong, and to be carefully wrong, that is the definition of decadence.”

So why won’t Noble correct such an obvious and serious error? Here’s my theory.

It would expose his weakness as a preacher

He readily acknowledges his ignorance of Hebrew, which is why he reacts so credulously to his Israeli driver. Noble mocks serious theological education and boasts about walking away from seminary himself. A mix of his willful ignorance of the biblical languages and of church history  was the toxic stew that helped produce his sermon. (Shouldn’t it have given him pause that he was rejecting the label that Protestants have always used for the commandments?)

Those who would preach God’s Word have a serious, terrible responsibility. To get it right requires much effort and study. In the Old Testament, the Levites prepared for the priesthood from birth and couldn’t start their priestly duties until they turned 30. Paul commends Timothy (2 Tim 3) for having learned Scripture from his childhood, yet commanded him to continue to study it as a workman so he would be ready to preach. Such serious preparation was required, Paul says, because other preachers would arise who would preach unsound doctrine.

Peter had the same concern about the harm that would be wrought by unlearned teachers.

Our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

A pastor’s ignorance of Scripture is not an excuse, it’s a threat.

It would undermine his salvation statistics

Noble got on his knees to beg people to say yes to Jesus after revising the Ten Commandments

Noble got on his knees to beg people to say yes to Jesus after revising the Ten Commandments

After Noble’s sermon, he pleaded for the unsaved to come forward to say yes to Jesus, something that Noble assumed signaled their conversion to Christianity. What would happen if Noble now renounced his entire sermon? Should the people who accepted his argument still be considered saved, given that they had actually heard a message that rejected the gospel? How do you issue a recall on an altar call?

He really does want to redefine Christianity

Friends of Noble have defended the Commandments sermon by suggesting that we’re overreacting and taking his lesson out of context. Noble actually provided the context at the beginning of his sermon.

It all starts with the word yes... Have you really said yes to God?…

There are two main objections that people have to becoming a Christian. One is that they’ve met some Christians, and I understand. Listen. We–because I’m a Christian–we can be weird people sometimes. We can say some dumb things. We can say some stupid things. We can say some insensitive things. Yes, we have been weird, but please don’t think God is weird because his people are…

But number two–and this is the biggest thing that people tell me. They say, “Perry, I don’t feel like I could do what it takes to be a Christian. I don’t feel like I could keep all the rules. I don’t feel like I could keep all the regulations. I don’t feel like I could keep the commandments. And, so because I can’t do it well I’m not even going to try because I would rather not try than to try at something and fail.”

And there are people here tonight that you’ve said no to Jesus for so long because you feel like you would fail, you would mess up, you couldn’t do it right. It goes back to this idea that in the Bible there’s these things called the Ten Commandments.

You ever heard of those? Even if you’re a non-christian, you’ve heard of the Ten Commandments. Now it became real interesting to me–and this is the reason that I think you need to say yes to Jesus tonight–because earlier this year I was in Israel…

[The story of his driver’s lesson about the Ten Commandment follows.]

Instead of Ten Commandments that you have to keep if you’re going to be a follower of Jesus, they’re actually ten promises that you can receive when you say yes to Jesus. So what I want to do tonight is I just want to go through each one of them very quickly….I am trying my best to convince you to say yes to Jesus because of these ten promises.

After describing God’s family as an embarrassment, he gets to the heart of the issue. If nonbelievers are repelled by God’s law, it’s really OK. There is no such thing as God’s law. God is really just a soft bucket of puppies and kittens that you’ll really, really enjoy. Noble is revising the Ten Commandments because God’s enemies don’t like them.

Noble is creating a religion that is going to be acceptable to people who can continue in their rebellion against God’s law. Rather than being broken by the law and rescued by Christ (see Romans 7), Noble is preaching an anti-Christian message that embraces a revulsion towards God’s law and God’s family.

This is why Noble needs to repent publicly and quickly. He has sold a false religion to his flock, many of whom may have no reason to examine the state of their salvation (Philippians 2:12).

We take no joy in seeing Noble persist in his error, though this Commandments sermon has provided many with a moment of clarity over the danger of his preaching. I fear for Noble, who in the last few weeks has denied that the early church had a Bible, said that homosexuality is no more sinful than obesity, and has now rejected the Ten Commandments. The trajectory is ominous.

Noble has lived on the boundaries of orthodoxy for a long time, but he has departed it now and is advocating a non-christian gospel. For the sake of the people who continue to follow Noble, we pray that he repents and comes back.

(P.S. I did privately contact Noble last week recommending that he repent and correct his Christmas Eve sermon. His statement today was his response.)

147 thoughts on “Noble departs Christian orthodoxy, announces he’s staying put

  1. Tony Walker Jan 5, 2015 8:30 am

    And I don’t like it when you say sucks, or crap, or darn, or pissed.” [Laughter and applause.]
    That is definitely nothing to either laugh at or applaud.

    The two things that got me before all of this took place…
    1. The blog post in which he used the word “holy” in front of one of the offensive words listed above. I understand people let things slip, I understand people say things out of anger or frustration. But to type the words Holy C***, then proofread, then hit publish shows that he sees no problem whatsoever with using such language. I just don’t understand how Christians (whatever the label) see no problem with using words such as that. For example, look at the number of church kids who post on Facebook “OMG”…

    2. Point #9 in his list of 10 things (which is referenced above). I have not been to seminary. I have been to Bible college. I am not as smart as I would like to be. I wish I knew more, etc… But when he posted that the early church didn’t have the Bible the thought that crossed my mind immediately is “What is he thinking?!” I’m not smart but even I know that was a dumb thing to say. I was glad to see an article posted soon after that responded to PN’s list of 10 things, only to be taken down shortly after.

  2. Mary Catherine Willis Jan 5, 2015 8:34 am

    “Every person in torment (hell) today no longer sees those who warned them of false doctrine as critical, judgmental, or hateful but caring for them enough to tell them the Truth! True ministers of the gospel will always warn of what is not Truth, but ONLY as they point to Who and what the Truth is!” Curtis Hutchison
    Coloss 1:28

    I pray he repents and preaches the true Gospel of Jesus Christ!

  3. Pingback: Perry Noble of NewSpring doubles-down on Ten Commandments error | discern.org

  4. Jeff Jan 5, 2015 8:43 am

    I’m sure you will delete this, but I am going to say it anyway. You need to just stop. You are grasping at straws. Not one time in that sermon did he say that you shouldn’t listen to the ten commandments. He was giving an interpretation of them as promises.Let me just add this in, I’m not a pastor, nor do I want to be one. However, you are either just wanting some sort of attention, or you have an agenda.

    As far as the “N” word, I wouldn’t expect you to understand. He did not say it in a derogatory way. If you are around teenagers these days (white or black) then you know exactly what he meant by it. So many address each other in a fun way like he did.

    I could go on and on with you about this, but I won’t. You and many others are what is wrong with Christians today. You are judging someone when God clearly says not to judge. I’m sure you think you have it all right and that your version is 100% correct. Guess what? You don’t. No one will know what is right until the day you are face to face with Jesus. So with that being said, step down off of your high horse and quit judging people. You are just one of many that make people not want to go to church.

    • Tony Walker Jan 5, 2015 8:55 am

      response to your 1st paragraph: thats the problem, he interrupted them as promises.
      2nd paragraph: PN isn’t a high school teenager. he is a middle aged white man in a high up position.
      3rd paragraph: get a concordance and look up the word judge and you will find we can judge things based on the perfect judge, the word.

      • Jeff Jan 5, 2015 9:03 am

        Wrong. Can you find in his sermon where he said to disregard the ten commandments? Let me answer that for you, you can’t. This is nothing more than grasping at straws.

        Also, it doesn’t matter if Perry is a high school teenager or not. I can guarantee you that youth leaders relate to kids in this way. You could poll a certain number of people in that audience and I bet you get more saying they aren’t offended than you would saying that they are. I’m sure you and the author of this article believe that you have to wear a suit and tie to church every Sunday as well. Am I right?

        As for the concordance, I don’t need one, nor do I want one. You can judge whatever you want (as you are doing), but hopefully God judges you as well for judging others. You and quite a few others here (around the world as well) are the main reason blood has been shed in the so called Christian faith for years. You all just know that you have it right and that your version is correct. Honestly, it is down right laughable.

        • Tony Walker Jan 5, 2015 9:22 am

          you can guarantee youth leaders relate to kids that way?

          not me. im a youth leader and i would never even dare talk like that to people. it does matter what PN is. he isn’t a teenager, he is a high up leader making a lot of money in a position of authority. if a highly paid mayor, governor, ceo, or coach talked like that he would be forced out or ‘step down’ immediately.

          suit and tie? and you accuse us of judging? 🙂 I wear on sunday the same thing i wear m-f, khaki pants and a button up shirt.

          concordance/judging: your reply doesn’t even make sense. saying you don’t need a concordance and we are judging is the very reason you need to get a concordance and study the word judge in the nt, esp the pauline epistles.

          • Jeff Jan 5, 2015 9:30 am

            It is very hard to take you seriously when you can’t even capitalize your words. Anyway, yes, several youth leaders relate to teenagers in that way. Also, for what it is worth, what Perry makes is none of your business, nor anyone else’s.

            I don’t care to judge you. Did you see me say I was a Christian? I’m simply pointing out what is wrong with you and your flawed religion. People like you have caused blood shed for years. How does that make you feel? Yet, you have it all right I’m sure.

            Just out of curiosity, do you have to sing hymns and have a certain protocol each week to know Jesus?

          • Jared Jan 5, 2015 11:07 am

            I am a student pastor. I would never relate to youth this way. I relate in a way that glorifies God, using a derogatory word in any manner with any purpose is wrong. My wife is a teacher, she does not relate to her students that way. I do not know one Youth Leader that does that. What a completely inaccurate statement.

          • Jeff Jan 5, 2015 11:11 am

            Well, I bet your students don’t like you very much then. This is a different society today. Either you adjust or get left behind. Speaking of wrong, do you sin?

          • Jared Jan 5, 2015 11:39 am

            Well, first off I don’t work for the approval of men but of God (Gal 1:10). In all actuality though, they do like me because I don’t try to act like a youth. I try to be a role model best I can. You can keep up with the times with becoming the world. Using that word is becoming a part of the world, something we are *commanded* not to do. Haven’t been left behind yet. The Gospel is good it saved me and it will leave many more.

            Do I sin? Of course. You know what I do when I sin? I repent. I admit it and flee from it.

          • Pirate77 Jan 6, 2015 1:36 pm

            Jeff, where do you get your basis for the directive from God to not judge?

          • Joel Jan 6, 2015 3:57 pm

            Ummmm, I’m a youth pastor and would never speak to my students like that. Relating to them does not mean becoming one of them. “Either you adjust or get left behind?” What a pitiful excuse to use a racist term. We are given a calling to teach our students to love God and love others. We are given a calling to help our students become men and women. If you have to get a cheap laugh and relationship out of them by referring to them as “N—–” you have a problem.

          • Alan Davis Jan 6, 2015 5:59 pm

            Don’t look now guys but Jeff Dontjudge just used blatant judgments on you all….lol, would that spell hypocrite? Certainly a middle aged main should use a racial epitaph when wanting to talk to a bunch of young impressionable people don’t you guys know that? And certainly we should believe PN when he says there is no Hebrew word for Commandment why would you believe 2000 years of godly men over him? I mean he has the new edge come on guys get with it or get left behind as Jeff Dontjudge told you all. Jesus, Paul and all those (cloud of witnesses) from the old days and the past 2000 years were just wrong!! Dont believe it ask Perry Noble. Perry is cool your not, that settles it. (in the mind of a middleschooler)

          • Tommy Jan 6, 2015 10:51 pm

            I was once a student at a local Christian school that you might say was stuck in the stone ages. However, looking back, I am so thankful to have had teachers who refused to compromise the Word of God. You won’t find your mindset of changing with the times anywhere in the Bible. What about Romans 12:2 which says, “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”?

          • Chris Jan 6, 2015 11:23 pm

            If I have to use that word to get people to like or listen to me, too bad. What ignorance you have my friend to think you have to say such words to get youth to listen to you.

          • Tommy Jan 7, 2015 7:37 pm

            I spent my high school years as a student at a local Bible believing Christian school that you might say was stuck in the stone ages, and I would have to agree. However, looking back, I am so thankful to have had the privilege of sitting under the teaching of godly men and women who adamantly refused to compromise the Word of God. Growing up, my grandmother was always saying things like, “Would Jesus do that,” or “Do you think Jesus likes hearing you talk that way”? I used to hate her for that. I was convinced that her sole purpose in life was to put a wet blanket on all my fun. However, now I couldn’t be more thankful that she never gave up encouraging me to live my life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Adrian Rogers used to say, “Yes, God loves you as you are, but He loves you too much to leave you that way.” If we’re not more like Him today than we were yesterday, there’s something bad wrong.

          • Jesus Follower Jan 8, 2015 5:08 pm

            Jeff,
            What is sin?

    • Mary Catherine Willis Jan 5, 2015 9:00 am

      Jeff he should stop when Perry stops peaching false doctrine. If it bothers you so much maybe you should search your heart to find out why.

      • Jeff Jan 5, 2015 9:05 am

        Again, show me where he has preached false doctrine. Let me guess? You are one of these people that believe you can’t be a pastor if you don’t go to seminary?

        Go to the NewSpring website and find his sermons for the past 5 years. I will be waiting on you to provide some evidence to match your claims.

        • Robert Jan 5, 2015 10:19 am

          Jeff,
          Quote:
          Again, show me where he has preached false doctrine.
          End quote.

          it’s as if you didn’t read the article above.

          His false doctrine was at least in denying that the 10 commandments are commandments and also that saying “yes” to God has anything to do with the gospel…hint; it doesn’t.

          False teaching is false teaching…there’s two.

    • Joe Blackmon Jan 5, 2015 10:33 am

      Jeff

      That whole “Do not judge” thing? Yeah, you might want to check on that.

      http://heargodspeak.blogspot.com/search/label/Do%20Not%20Judge

    • Not confused Jan 5, 2015 10:15 pm

      I don’t need any analysis to tell me that PN is someone to be cautious about. Instinct and observation are enough. I appreciate that some have been attracted to Christianity through preaching of PN, but can’t understand how they don’t find him to be offensive (particularly after I have watched the Boaz dog clip) nor do I understand why people are willing to ignore the commercialization employed by this church, use of material incentives, or the lack of accountability. Most of all I am disturbed by their recruiting efforts of our kids, by using other kids and peer pressure. The branding of this church has become more iconic and prominent than the supposed focus on Christianity. I am glad the parishioners love their church, but the rest of us have found a home in our own church and don’t need it to feel like it is a competition. That said, I think we should all just ignore PN, because critique seems to go nowhere. When having an “n” sticker on your car is a status symbol, I can only think that the fad will fade.

      • David Rhee Jan 5, 2015 10:36 pm

        Actually, I don’t believe that ignoring Perry would be a good solution… If my recollection of the early Christian church, Arianism spread because of the fact that the church did not take a hard line stance on the matter.. Rather than dealing with the situation and rebuking for what its worth, the early Christian church left it alone (more or less) and that led to “Athanasius contra mundum” (and luckily, the church finally made a stance… But don’t forget what happened afterward with the Arian resurgence)…

        Even the Bible makes a strong statement of rebuking on those who teach the Gospel wrong or falsely (Titus 1)… At the end of the day, doing nothing on the matter will not be doing due diligence in honoring God.. Two, apostate is not a fad.. It will always be around til the second coming of Christ… Three, not confront the very false teaching that Perry “preaches” will only bring many more with the wrong theology.. We know that a wrong theology equate wrong salvation (or hence no salvation)… So the matter is not to be taken lightly…

    • Chris Rosebrough Jan 6, 2015 8:54 am

      Jeff,

      In your 3rd paragraph you say, “You and many others are what is wrong with Christians today. You are judging someone when God clearly says not to judge.”

      How come it is okay for you to judge? You are doing the exact thing that you are saying Christians can’t do. Why the double standard? Why is it okay for you to judge people for judging?

    • Taylor Jan 26, 2015 10:49 am

      Jeff, my suggestion to you would be that you begin to read scripture, for yourself, just the bible.

      Here are some principals I would suggest starting with.

      1. Conforming to society (for instance, using “the N word”) over time is not a good thing, in fact, we are commanded to renew our minds and set ourselves apart from these things (Romans 12.2). This isn’t “a fun way” to address people. It’s a word with roots in oppression and slander, which God detests to the level even of murder (Matthew 15.19)

      2. God actually clearly does tell us to judge fellow believers. The scripture which you are thinking of is Matthew 7, and it’s great you are familiar with this verse in which Jesus is instructing on how to properly judge your brothers in Christ. He specifically warns against doing so out of pride or arrogance, which, once removed, we can then judge and call out sin in others “then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye”. Some additional reading I would suggest, Matthew 18.15-20 (in which Jesus constructs the correct system for judging sin and enacting punishment within the church) and 1 Corinthians 5.11 (wherein Paul instructs how to judge and treat those who are believers but are unrepentant in sin).

  5. Daniel S Jan 5, 2015 11:13 am

    I’m confused Jeff are you a christian? If not why are you so adamant in defending a professing Christian pastor from critique? If you are a christian then I suggest you read the actual verses from which you are getting your “don’t judge” mantra. Which if read in context are seen to actually endorse judging after people have examined themselves. “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:1-5 ESV)

  6. LInn Jan 5, 2015 11:14 am

    You can tell I’m from a slightly older crowd when Perry’s waffling on both his offensive terminology and explanation of his lack of “research” bring up images of Nixon and Clinton trying to salvage what was left of their reputations on television.

    Perry is, to put it mildly, completely out to lunch. The N-word is never appropriate anywhere, especially from middle-aged white men. His lack of Bible preparation for a sermon preached to thousands on Christmas Eve is laughable.

    I hope that Perry is familiar with a cautionary tale known as the Driscoll Saga…I also hope that the people in this congregation will find true biblical teaching, vs. having their ears tickled.

    • Jeff Jan 5, 2015 11:25 am

      No offense, but if I had to guess, I would say you are in your late 50’s to early 60’s. The “N” word that everyone is referencing is pronounced “nicca” and that is a completely different meaning than “nigger”. I hope some of you eventually get out from the 1960’s and into where we are today. Put down the hymnals….those times are long gone.

      • Jared Jan 5, 2015 11:28 am

        I am 24. I love hymns and I love contemporary music both have rich meaning and lyrics. If I was from the 1960’s I would actually probably use that words considering the culture. Aren’t you the one saying (inaccurately of course) not to judge, then doing the very thing? Alas, you have proven your assumptions are wrong. No offense of course.

      • LInn Jan 5, 2015 11:32 am

        Jeff,
        I would lose my teaching position if I ever dared to use that word in a public setting, or any other racial slur, by the way.

        Even if a word becomes “acceptable’ in certain circles, as believers we are to be above reproach in both word and deed. Using such terminology does not put us above reproach.

      • Jenn Jan 5, 2015 11:44 am

        Jeff,

        I’m 31. There’s such amazing encouragement and great biblical truths found in hymns! My love for hymns actually began in college. Pick one up and just read some of the lyrics one day. There are even some great hymns arranged to more modern music – check out Indelible Grace or The Digital Age “Rehearsals” albums.

      • Reformed Berean Jan 5, 2015 3:36 pm

        Jeff,

        If you cant see the error in Perry Noble’s teachings then you definitely need to spend more time in the word and expose yourself to other sound teachers in order for you to learn how to discern false teachings. You obviously dont know what you speak of when you say Christians arent to judge.

        As far as the N word goes, if you feel that is not offensive for a white person to use that word, why dont you and/or perry just go up to a random African American person and use that word in the context your suggest like “whats up my N?” and see if that is well received by them.

        And why did Newspring even deny that Perry said that in the first place if there is NOTHING wrong with a pastor using that word from the pulpit in that context?

        Perry Noble started his career by modeling after Ed Young Jr and then he is heavily influenced by Mark Driscoll. Even Noble wanting to name a dog Boaz is from Driscoll talking about Boaz in a sermon series. Take a look at how the Driscoll sad saga ended and get a peek into a possible future for Noble.

        • Sonja Jan 5, 2015 8:14 pm

          RB, funny you should bring up Driscoll since I believe they influenced each other. Regardless, good friends giving each other a platform when they could.

          I left MHC 4 years ago when it became “all about Mark”, but Mark did get a lot right and this is pretty good regarding the intro to a sermon series on the Ten Commandments given long after I left. Reading this about Noble, made me go look. Although MHC is no more, PMD (Pastor Mark Driscoll, that’s how it shows up in a window heading on Chrome) has it on his own new site, which would be another blog post.

          Sorry for the rambling — Driscoll does not agree with Noble. Neither know Hebrew and both make fun of those who learn Hebrew (and Greek for that matter). Interesting read, and some good points.

          http://markdriscoll.org/media/ten-commandments-set-free-to-live-free/i-have-no-other-gods

  7. Savedbygrace Jan 5, 2015 12:44 pm

    It’s amazing how blind some can be to the irony of their position. The harshest, most unloving judgements are continually made by those who insist we shouldn’t judge. What they mean is, “don’t judge anything Perry says”. I believe Perry has good intentions, but he is not faithful to scripture and is even proud of this fact. That is inexcusable for a man who is entrusted with the shepherding of souls. Would you go to a doctor who didn’t care about medical standards of care? How much more important is eternity???

  8. Starlord Jan 5, 2015 1:41 pm

    What’s a shame is that NewSpring had/has such incredible potential. At one point in time I would have considered them the most solid church in the upstate. But in recent years, things have been taken way too far. I pray that God would convict Perry and that he would turn back before it’s too late. If not, I’m afraid we’ll have another Driscoll on our hands…

  9. Stephen Jan 5, 2015 1:51 pm

    Jeff @ 11:25am

    Wow, that is some astonishing ignorance! You’ve outdone yourself. I hope you aren’t representative of the average NewSpringer.

  10. XianJaneway Jan 5, 2015 2:24 pm

    Before I read the rest of the article, I want to share a story with you: I am a worship leader. When I was a newbie, teenage worship leader, I was supposed to sing, “I will seek You/in all of my ways/I will follow/all of my days.”

    I forgot the line, and couldn’t remember whether I was supposed to say “seek” or “follow,” and combined the two accidentally, and what I sang was, “I will f**k you/all of my days.”

    I didn’t use that word in my every day language, but as a teenager, I heard it five thousand times a day.

    It was the most embarassing day of my life at the time.

    I truly, truly don’t think that this is something we should be angry over as a church. We should say that the language is absolutely wrong, and move on. Word salads happen to everyone, and Noble has given us enough to be angry about without us worrying about this.

    Now, to read the rest…

    • David Rhee Jan 5, 2015 8:58 pm

      Your argument would have been understandable for your situation but the issue is that English is Perry’s native language.. He is not in front of a teenagers during a service but in front of the whole “church congregation” (because this can’t be a church that can’t even correct false doctrine) and multiple location sites..

      I am Asian American (if you can’t tell).. I would not be so harsh but when he can’t even preach the Gospel correctly, continually teach false doctrine, etc.. To cap off this statement when I first heard, there is no mistake what was stated… To exempt on his continual action of unrepentance and making a mockery of Christ and the Christian faith, that in itself is not excusable.. Again, where is his repentance? None.. That is the issue…

      • Elle Jan 6, 2015 7:37 pm

        “Your argument would have been understandable for your situation but the issue is that English is Perry’s native language..”

        Do you two know each other personally? Because I don’t see where XianJaneway stated that English was not their first language.

        I completely agree with XianJaneway’s sentiment. I’ve had inappropriate words or stutters that sound like inappropriate words come out of my mouth, unintentionally. Sometimes, it just happens.

        These articles on Perry Noble are simply a witch hunt. I’d be more inclined to follow this blog if Mr. Duncan would write about what he teaches at his church. But since he finds Perry Noble so interesting and blogs about him so frequently (as well as what other churches are doing wrong), I no longer have the patience to sit around and wait for Mr. Duncan to add something of value to the church’s dialogue.

        • David Rhee Jan 6, 2015 9:11 pm

          Oops.. I guess I misread of her post.. But her name does give it away… Do you know that? OR are you telling me that I can’t understand that too? So who is being all snappy and trying to tell it all..

          Secondly, Perry Noble is getting a witch hunt? Are you kidding me, he created the very mess on his own.. If he actually properly make exegetical statement and preach the GOSPEL in and out of season (meaning, no changes or adaptations of his imagination), you should see why there is an uproar… And Mr. Duncan is doing just that… Blogging what Perry PREACHES..

          • Elle Jan 7, 2015 10:27 am

            “But her name does give it away…”

            You do know that there are second-generation Americans who carry on cultural traditions through their names, right? While I’m not saying that your statement is inaccurate, it appears as though you’re stereotyping.

            Also, I don’t see anywhere in my previous comment where I was being snappy, so can you clarify who you’re directing that to?

            Lastly, you’re right — he is blogging on what Perry is preaching. I know way more about what Perry preaches than I’ll never know about Duncan, thanks to this blog. But that doesn’t mean I’m not learning anything about Duncan.

            “What Susie says of Sallie says more about Susie than of Sallie”

          • XianJaneway Jan 9, 2015 12:41 am

            Oh, sorry David. My screen name is actually my twitter handle, @XianJaneway, which stands for “Christian Janeway,” a parody/comedy account that combines Star Trek with critique of the modern Church’s treatment of women.

            English is my 1st language. 🙂 I just *messed up that badly* as a young worship leader, and I truly don’t think *this* is where we should be critiquing P.N.

            However on his “Ten Commandments” issue, it would be so nice if he would just APOLOGIZE and say, “Whoops, I was wrong!” However, he seems intent on digging his heels in here… 🙁

  11. RG Leverett Jan 5, 2015 7:02 pm

    Any adult white Southerner who uses the N word as a way to relate is not only unwise but also foolish. I don’t believe that Noble is a racist mbecause he uses the N word in a hipster way but he is showing total ignorance of history. I’m confident that is he would discuss this with a mature African American brother in Christ he could see the hurt the N word causes.

  12. Concerned Jan 5, 2015 8:24 pm

    Can someone please show me where the bible says adjust or get left behind? I can’t believe some of the comments I have read concerning these issues. First he didn’t say it, then he did but his words got tangled, then he didn’t mean it derogatory . Keep em coming.

    • LIsa Jan 5, 2015 11:24 pm

      Concerned

      I agree and wondered where they get adjust or get left behind. I would be a lot more worried about being Left Behind when Jesus comes back. Part of the problem in the world today is because too many christians are adjusting instead of standing up for what Gods word says. A pastor is responsible for his flock and their souls. If he teaches it wrong and souls are lost because of it, then he will have to answer to God for that. The bible is very clear about anyone who changes what God’s word says. I can understand someone trying to simplify what the bible says by using an easier word for someone to understand however, when you completely change the meaning as he does for the 10 commandments on top of saying that they are not commandments, then that is a completely different thing.

      • russ Jan 6, 2015 10:16 am

        I believe you can “adjust” without changing the Gospel. I don’t know of too many churches who still sing Psalms in Hebrew for worship on Sunday mornings. The gospel doesn’t change but I believe that methods to reach others have changed over the years.The burning bush was very effective with Moses but I don’t see in scripture where God used that method again? While I don’t agree with Perrys take on the Ten Commandments, I also don’t agree with a lot of others who seem to attack him behind the safety of a computer screen. Mr. Duncan comes across as vindictive and out for payback. I’m not trying to demonize Mr. Duncan by any means, I can only imagine what it has been like for he and his family. I believe we all, as followers of Jesus Christ, should be aware of how we are seen by unbelievers. I will be held accountable as to whether I point others to the Gospel or push them away. We should examine ourselves daily and measure our walk with Christ against the measuring stick that is Jesus himself. I have a responsibility to test every word that comes out of a Pastors mouth against the Word of God. That goes for every Pastor. I can only pray for Pastor Perry and Newspring as well as all churches and pastors who claim to be followers of Jesus Christ. Always remember that others are watching!

        • MB Jan 6, 2015 11:28 am

          russ,

          I appreciate the humility of your reply. I think the very nature of criticism can come across as harsh, or vindictive especially in a culture like ours that teaches that if you really love someone you’ll just accept what they do no matter what they do.

          However, despite the way his criticisms may be coming across, isn’t Dr. Duncan’s assessment of false teaching actually the most loving thing he could possibly do for the body of Christ?

          Use this illustration as an example. Let’s say I’m throwing a party and inviting a bunch of people. But there is a carbon monoxide leak in my home that I’m unaware of but you notice. If you knew there was a carbon monoxide leak inside my house would you just let the rest of my guests come over as if nothing was wrong? Or would you instead try to warn them and myself of the impending danger?

          People might call you crazy and just say, “That’s just the way MB’s house smells.” or “But, look at how much fun the people are having clearly there can’t be anything wrong with his home”, but their comments would be misguided.

          The most loving thing to do in that scenario is to warn anyone and everyone who will listen that danger is ahead.

          I understand that those outside of the church may think this looks bad, but letting them go to the dangerous party unabated is even worse. If non-believers think less of Christians because Christians try to stand up for what is true and stand against what is false, I believe that, with humility and love, that’s an okay thing to be known for.

          • russ Jan 6, 2015 4:31 pm

            I absolutely agree with the fact that we, as followers of Jesus Christ, must hold each other accountable to whether we are speaking the Gospel or one’s interpretation of the Gospel. My problem is the forum.Using your illustration, if I knew there was a leak at your home, would I put a warning on my blog where only my friends could see it. If I did that the warning probably wouldn’t reach the ears of those who needed to hear it. I don’t have an answer as to the proper way to handle this situation. I know the biblical way is to confront the individual and, from what I understand, Mr. Duncan tried unsuccessfully to do that. I do hope that Perry has someone around him who will call him out when he is in error. I don’t attend Newspring but I have heard him preach many times and I have never heard him preach anything that I would consider false teaching up until this point.

  13. Joyce Jan 5, 2015 8:51 pm

    Perry is just wanting people to think he is so cool. Not! He could make the same points he tries to make sometimes, by using clean language! If my pastor was that disrespectful, I would get up and walk out too many gimmicks!

  14. Jack Jan 5, 2015 10:21 pm

    I don’t know what service you watched in reference to perrys explanation and apology, i watched a later sermon in which he fully refuted the claim that he said the “N” word and that he says it at all or ever has and that its not apart of his vocabulary and that it makes him upset just to hear the word as he is a big supporter of racial reconciliation, as i also was interested to hear his response to the accusation as i personally thought he said the word because it very much sounded as such but in hearing his apology and sincerity i see no reason to continue to comment or speak and speculate on his supposed use of the word publicly or privately as at this point after his response there is no other source to refute his own statement that he does not use the word anything further would become gossip based on personal uninformed opinions

  15. tim Jan 5, 2015 10:35 pm

    Just for info, the church body should know what the Pastor is paid as well as where the money is being spent. Although im sure his slip up with the N word was just that, a slip up. He should justadmitt, repent and move forward. Nothing to be in an uproar about. But, I do take major concern on his passage about the Ten Commandments. Seminary is very much needed for those that are called to preach. It helps with the presentation as well as conveying the proper biblical message.

  16. JM Jan 5, 2015 10:48 pm

    Let’s be honest. It’s not the N word this is about, it’s false teaching. Perry Noble has taught “me” centered doctrine for years and now he has taken it to a new level. In the meantime he inoculates his sheep against criticism by telling them he’s a radical kind of Christian and warns that old fashioned fuddy duddies will come against him while he tears down their walls of discernment. His supporters are blind to the truth and will support him just like the Obama supporters defend him.

  17. Not confused Jan 6, 2015 7:52 am

    All the people I know who go to Newspring are wonderful, considerate people. I just can’t comprehend or imagine an explanation for why they don’t find PN to be an offensive narcissist, irregardless of his twisting of the biblical message. The fact that he responded to critique about his sermon is notable, but it unfortunately only seems to give him more attention as the victim. It would be interesting to know how many of his followers leave this church as a result of the critique vs figuring out for themselves that this isn’t the place they want to be for their spiritual nurturing.

    • JLM Jan 6, 2015 4:48 pm

      You may want to actually view the message for yourself instead of taking the word of a person intent on destroying Perry’s ministry. https://newspring.cc/sermons/how-to-have-the-best-year-of-your-life/how-to-have-the-best-year-of-your-life1

      • Not confused Jan 6, 2015 5:08 pm

        I did view it

        • Not confused Jan 6, 2015 5:34 pm

          He did say the N word, his explanation for the slip up and claim he didn’t really say it reeks of a lack of integrity coupled with Narcissim. I have heard this crap before. If you have a slip of the tongue on stage, a slip like that only happens if you are accustomed to using a word. But I am also disgusted by how he talks about his wife, wanting to kill a guy on the airplane, and shooting a nuclear weapon at someone. It’s like he is a ten year old boy…His sermons are more of a bad comedy routine, designed to suck you in. It’s entertainment. I know very little about theology in comparison to Duncan and others, but I have enough experience with people, especially narcissists, to recognize a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

  18. Just Askin' Jan 6, 2015 8:44 am

    Are you a Hebrew Scholar?

    • James Duncan Jan 6, 2015 9:06 am

      More so than Noble, not as much as Jesus and the Apostle Paul, on whose authority I’ll rely.

      • Jeff Jan 7, 2015 9:17 am

        Not more than the two guys he is referencing that actually speak Hebrew. Carry on….

        • Daniel G. Jan 7, 2015 10:36 am

          Wow! You just don’t get it, Jeff. Dr. Duncan and various other commenters have been over the Hebrew discussion already and you’re still resorting this argument. You’re just being willfully blind at this point.

  19. Tommy Jan 6, 2015 12:28 pm

    Thank you, Dr. Duncan, for your insight! You were right, this has confirmed something for me that I have suspected for years. My heart breaks every time I see someone wearing an “I Love My Church” t-shirt, because I wonder, “Do they know the truth, or are they really on their way to Hell thinking they’re going to Heaven”? It isn’t simply the difference from the little country church that I grew up in that scares me; it’s Noble’s tendency to produce false-converts by only presenting half of the story. I warn people about NewSpring not because it’s different, but because it is dangerous. I strongly believe that NewSpring and others like it are backed by the devil himself at that he targets my generation as well as the next because he knows that, if he can strip the truth from us, soon truth will die with the older generation. To say that it is sad is the understatement of eternity.

    So thank you for working tirelessly to expose the truth. It is clear that your posts are coming not from a hatred of NewSpring but from love and deep concern for its people.

  20. lafe tolliver Jan 6, 2015 1:32 pm

    People of God: Please understand that in the last days, we will have people like Perry Noble spouting gibberish under the guise of being a cool and hip]
    pastor, as if that is what it takes to win souls to Christ.
    Perry Noble is off based and does not know the scriptures and as such is an
    ignorant person who should not be pastoring. Am I judging him? You betcha.
    The Word of God requires Christians to judge by the Word and when you place the nonsense of Perry against the template of scriptures, Perry is a long
    loser. No debate. The people who continue to sit under him are those who have itching ears to hear what they want and they are not in a position to
    correct his negative behavior. They share in this ignorance. Come out from him and be separate. If he is not willing to repent and believe the gospel, leave this man to his own fate. The Body of Christ has enough Perry Noble’s
    prancing around saying incredulous non Biblical things and when they are caught on them, they want to get defensive or have their ignorant (lack of
    of knowledge) sheep come to their defense.
    If Peter, Paul or James were to walk through the Christian Church in America and visit Perry Noble and hear some of his rubbish, they would rebuke him
    like Paul rebuked Peter.
    Judgement will start with the household of God and that includes the antics of Perry, and Creflo, and Hagin and Copeland and Meyers and White and a host of others who have distorted the real gospel to suit their own agendas.
    People of God, stand up for Jesus and quit giving these bashers of the gospel any quarter!
    Reprove them once and rebuke them and then leave them and inform others not to go near them. They are toxic to the faith. If John the Baptist can call
    people a brood of vipers, I have no qualm is calling out those who butcher the Word of God. Be a watchman on the wall and warn the people about the Perry Nobles of the world!

  21. JLM Jan 6, 2015 4:47 pm

    WOW! Last time I checked, when you quote someone you have to actually use ALL the words they say in context. When you twist words then you are no better than you claim Perry to be, and you spread hatred and discord in the Body of Christ. Beware! You will be judged for your deeds (Romans 14:12-13) and the measure you judge with Jesus warns that you will be judged by as well (Mat 7:2). I would seriously take heed and read Proverbs 6:16-19 and James 4:11. It is shame that you would waste your GOD given time doing such things. As we say in the South, God Bless you!

  22. DeLaine Jan 6, 2015 5:56 pm

    The article was “well stated”, thank you Mr. Duncan.

  23. Escaped Jan 6, 2015 9:56 pm

    As an ex-‘owner’ of NS I can say that I have heard many of Perry’s sermons, and attended the services until I could not stand it any more. Leaving was very traumatic for my family, but I now see that it was the right thing to do. There are about 5 topics that have been repackaged over and over again, with the same stories over and over again. I sat through Perry’s Stand-Up Comedy routine complete with the language and demeanor of a middle schooler. I have heard the Boaz reference, heard the spider and cat stories, heard the eating stories, heard the mocking of ‘church people’, etc. Apparently when he branches out of those areas there is no place for him to go, evidenced by the Christmas Eve message. There is an overwhelming arrogance in the leadership and staff of the NS, accountable only to themselves, and the ‘financial reports’ published merely mock the idea of accountability. These are generally young people with no grounding other than what they have heard from Perry, no life experience, no idea what it takes to earn the salary that pays the tithe that pays their salary–and are now enrolling in ‘NS University’ for more inbred teaching. NS is taking on the characteristics of a cult–one single charismatic leader, control of information, control of what to think and being unable or unwilling to critically evaluate the teaching. After years of volunteering in the community, I sat through a service and was told if I didn’t sign up to volunteer at the CHURCH I would be purged from the church roll. That was the end for me. NS didn’t start out like this, but has evolved into a big business with care taken to self-promote at every opportunity. Sadly, there are many being deceived. I do not doubt that God can use any situation to save, but emotional manipulation does not equal salvation. Time will tell, I suppose, if these are real conversions, but with the lack of discipleship, spiritual growth will be difficult. As far as the ‘n’ word…..he said it, he said it glibly and easily as though well-practiced, and he and the church spokesperson lied about it. The mature Christians at NS need to wake up and speak up. If not this, what will it take for you to act? Christians need to hold each other accountable….apparently Perry has missed out on Accountability 101.

  24. Don Hendrix Jan 7, 2015 12:16 am

    Escaped, I think your assessment is fair while also being insightful…for that great job! I think a lot of the thread has been going off on different tangents rather than basing off facts as Dr. Duncan has done thoroughly. While I am by no means a Newspring nor PN fan, the church does do some great things for the community especially with providing for students (as in school supplies, not new iPads for attractive purposes). But as with every church, there are their weaknesses due to how the church is setup, its vision, and bt the fallacy of men. Setting up a vision to reach 100,000 for Christ is a steep, but incredible goal; however, the problem comes through the means of how you reach that number. Most of these means come by the attractive nature between men and the surplus of material (materialism). Naturally how the church is setup, Perry is going to be the figurehead for the church. Figureheads will do great things, but will sometimes do things that draw criticism. As a figurehead, public perception typically works against the figurehead as in this case, it works against Perry. While some criticisms are fair and are needed to counterbalance theology, people do make mistakes because, well, we are humans. He just has stage where a lot of people can follow or critique him. We do ourselves an injustice if we don’t remember that Perry has feelings and struggles as we all do; however, we must also create accountability within the church whether it be a congregation, denomination, or the collective church. To answer this recent event Perry has created, he did not discard the 10 Commandments per se, but altered the traditional evangelical and Jewish understandings of it while spinning it as “promises” or “sayings” of God. Did we have it wrong for 3,000+ years? No. Will John Piper tweet “Farewell Perry Noble” maybe. Is this something that should have been discussed with other leaders before it was preached? Absolutely. I think this is something Perry will learn down the road (not now) and will grow from it and hopefully use as a building block to reach more people for Christ’s Kingdom.

    • David Rhee Jan 7, 2015 7:28 am

      Don Hendrix,

      Could I ask you one thing? On what basis of anyone’s assessment would be fair? I would like to ask how would you define a church? On what basis?

      Why I am being a bit critical is that you seem to look at what Newspring (and no, I do not see it as a church) has done to be the basis of “not to be as harsh”.. At least to hint that way from your post…

      Why I bring it up is that I don’t have a Machiavelli’s concept or the thought that the end of justifies the means. I do not look at the end result of Newspring but the means and the attitude of how they do and what they do… That is why I ask these questions because you state you are not a fan of NS but you seem to look at the “result” that states that they do good things. What perplex is how does pragmaticism become the standard to see if Newspring is a church or not? Or do good things? Let me expand on this further.

      1) A church is a dedicated body of Christ (not based on buildings but rather) people who are baptized in Christ and gather together to worship Him… I understand (not completely but enough to comprehend) the Greek word and the derivation. At the end, the signification is that the Church not only accept that Christ is the head of the church BUT also accepts what Christ has preached to be the absolute authority and Truth (meaning the Word of God is Truth)…

      The question I ask is does Newspring follow the orthodoxy of the Bible? The Truth that the Word of God not only proclaims and is clearly stated? No.. As the Bible states through Paul that if you preach another/other thing except what is written in the Gospel (and Bible), then it is another gospel (a false one; actually, as Paul emphasize there is no other gospel)… It is important to realize that means and attitude to the Word of God is significantly much or more important that the end result…. So your argument about what Newspring has done misses the point of what Christians are think (which result in how you do; hence belief)…

      2) As Christians, we should all know that the end result of someone converting is done by God… Not by man… Our job is to faithful proclaim the Gospel in and out of season… Do you see that with Perry’s “preaching”.. Not only is he not rightfully handling the Truth but making changes and butchering to make something other than the Truth… So if those so called many that he “brought” to Christ are under a false pretense, do you really think they are saved? I question if they are truly saved (because for Christians, the means are as important or much more because a mistake could result in error and hence, no salvation).. This is why it is such a serious matter and why Perry get scrutinized.. Also, the way he preaches point to what is more important to him.. It is not the Gospel.. It is about Him.. His creativity and His praise… You know his comedy act does what?

      Also, look at Jeremiah and Isaiah who are prophets of God that converted no one during their respective lives (hence, God’s judgment to the nation of Israel and Judah)… So by the basis of pragmaticism, they are complete failures.. But clearly the Bible and its writing don’t view them as such…

      3) Figurehead would be greatly scrutinized than the flock.. I concur but the scrutiny is not only the publicity of someone who shepherd the church but their actions that is contrary… Again, preachers are placed under a higher level of scrutiny because they are much more of a public figure that represent who Christ is to this world… Does other members in the body of Christ don’t represent Christ? NO.. We are all ambassadors but pastors and elders are bigger representation… Also, the scrutiny Perry is getting is what any Christian would be getting from his fellow brothers in Christ that truly love him.. Because his theology is in error… That is the WHOLE POINT.. Added, he is “pastoring” a church with a wrong theology that impacts who Christ is (which he got that wrong) and affects many who think they are saved but might not be… Why hell will burn hotter for false teachers.. Because they impact not only themselves but brings others with him (what Satan does with humanity)…

      Funny I listen to Phil Johnson and John MacArthur.. Do they get what Perry gets in terms of scrutiny in their theology? No.. No one could ever question their theology (or at least state that their theology is wrong or contrary to the Word of God)…They are public figures so why are they not questioned for their theology.. (Answer, they have but they are consistent to the Word of God)… Talking here core foundations of the Christian faith? Because they preach what comes out of the Bible (hence, exegetical).. Perry preach into the Gospel (called eisegetical; hence another, different gospel)…. You should consider that in mind with your argument…

      3) People making mistake and have feelings are a poor argument… For one, the mistakes are not minor in this discussion.. And a qualification of pastor (overseer) has been clearly laid out by Paul when you check Titus and Timothy in the NT… So mistakes that goes against these qualifications are serious because of their position and church authority with the flock… Making a mistake like forgetting to do something and to group that with wrong theology is a poor argument when the Bible is explicit on error and false teaching… But I ask when does feeling have a basis of theological discernment? I would concur how we deliver our critiques is important (and hence feelings) but I believe we are past that point with Perry… Many like Chris (from Fighting for the Faith), Dr Duncan, and many more have approach with care but Perry not only ignore the matter but attacked his critics… I would care for you to ask Perry on his feelings when reacting to his critics? OR calling people who ask for more depth in the Word of God as being lazy, fat, and greedy show his feelings to others? Lastly, just because I critique and point out the obvious don’t mean that I am approaching without any heart or care.. Interventions are just that.. People who are trying to stop someone from going into a destructive path.. It seems to come off from that particular person (person’s point of view) to be harsh, cold, or lacking in feelings.. But in reality, it shows love.. But Perry don’t see that way..

      To conclude, the Bible is very explicit in the interpretation and distinction of commandments and promises.. Commmandments and sayings.. These are the very reason why the early church could point many heresies like Arianism, Legalism (Judiazers), Socinism, Pelgianism, etc… So what you post that Perry just alter the interpretation is what heresy is… Do you think heresy discard things all the things written in the Bible? No… Most of the time, it is alter one or few Christian foundation of belief. Like Judiazer could accept Jesus as God but discard the grace that God freely give through Jesus.. (Salvation based on grace or work?) Pelgianism totally disagree on the nature of original sin… So altering interpretation has much more ramification that you would think it to believe. Again, I go back to question assessment? What is the standard? Like the early churches.. It all went back to the Word of God… What Perry has done is to spin into something clearly not in the Bible and that would be called false teaching.. Hence, there is no new interpretation of the Bible .. If you make that argument, you should call Mormoms… Christians… And we know Mormoms are not Christians

      • Don Hendrix Jan 7, 2015 9:54 am

        David,

        I believe you are asking the wrong questions because of false pretenses. You ask how I define a church. My view, which holds evidence in the Bible of what the church is, is that it is a collective body of believers that teach, fellowship, disciple, worship, evangelize, and take part in sacraments/ordinances (baptism and the Lord’s Supper). Of course you have other components such as the pastor and congregants, but when you start to deny that Newspring is not a church outside of these components, you are assuming they aren’t meeting some specific requirement as if those requirements come from the Bible rather than traditions. I’m sure the early church wouldn’t have met your requirements if it had to meet something outside of what I have stated earlier. I think when you ask does Newspring follow the orthodoxy of the Bible you are mixing up two things. Does it follow the model of churches in the 70s and 80s? No, because they have kept up and integrated technology into their church (which isn’t necessary for every church, but they choose to). Does it follow the major events in the Bible and accept them as truth, yes they do. In one part of your response you question the value/authenticity of salvations at Newspring and I can understand that IF they use a form of manipulation as Elevation has before, but you need to be real careful with that. Salvation is an instance, a process, and a promise. Paul pointed out that out in his letters. Since Jesus Christ is the only one who can offer salvation, he can be the only one who can give claim. Yes, I understand you can tell a tree by its fruits, but fruits don’t appear instantly, a tree has to grow roots first before it can grow and bear fruit.

        • David Rhee Jan 7, 2015 10:38 am

          Don Hendrix,

          Your point is well taken but I want to refine it more than a generic term of what a church means… I think we are talking a Christian church.. So I could agree with your definition but my point is that the definition you posted does not make it Christian… I have researched the Church of Satan, they do all that you listed (except they don’t believe in Jesus).. Even the Mormons… But that does not make it Christian… So I apologize for not being clear but I believe the context you posted is in the context of a Christian church (and assuming Newspring is.. Which is the issue I have) and your definition to be inconclusive at best.. So theology matters to be a church (hence, church mission statement)… BTW, my stance is Roman Catholicism is apostate and not part of the catholic church (that is Biblically sound in the Christian faith).

          The issue I had with your post is that when you stated:

          “Setting up a vision to reach 100,000 for Christ is a steep, but incredible goal;”

          You are assuming that they are Christian church that is Biblically rooted in the Word of God.. As I point to your argument.. So are Mormons Christian? Because by your argument and definition, Mormons should be then.. But you are arguing that I am basing it on tradition than what is written in the Bible.. The key issue here is that end do not mean anything until you address the mean of getting to end (if possible)… That is what distinguish a church that is Biblically sound or apostate (not a church at all)… Could a church come back from apostate? Of course! But the church here (Newspring) continue to not rebuke the pastor’s errors in his “preaching” to flat out false doctrines.. That is the point and what you are alluding that these matters can’t be determined? It clearly could be seen as you could see it.. It comes back to the Word of God and the Truth it profess… So yes, you could determine if Newspring is Biblically sound or not (meaning a church or an apostate)… Yes, I would agree that I have to be careful in how I call churches or not.. But I believe at this point, the unrepentance of this Church and its pastor is clear enough that is not Christian..

          I concur I do not offer salvation except Christ but don’t your statement I pointed out to be an error… 100,000 to Christ… Like Perry or Newspring has a say on salvation then? So then wouldn’t think that is in error? OR something that they are capable of which they don’t have say.. It is weird that you would argue that point to me but you don’t seem to do at Newspring…

          Follow major events? Events are not what determines a church or not.. Just because I go to church on Sunday does not mean I am saved (or going to Church event for Easter and Christmas).. If this is truly a Christian church, the orthodoxy of the Word of God would be core.. So again, how does Perry Noble and how the church has handled the errors of Perry for countless times not show this church is becoming or is apostate? Again, the early churches distinguish false teachers and quickly rectified it by making them repent or excommunicating them.. So where is that in this church? You seem to not see that..

          Lastly, my definition would actually validate that early churches were churches.. BECAUSE it hinges on their theology.. Belief.. Where is their belief based on? The Word of God.. I would ask you should discern your points because it seems to assume more than I…

  25. Sheila Jan 7, 2015 12:22 am

    All of this with New Spring Church just reminds me of another man who thought like this and that was Jim Jones and we all no what happened there. I believe in Christ and the Church but I do not believe in Perry’s Preaching.

  26. Pingback: WARNING YOU WITH TEARS WEDNESDAY | Living4HisGlory's Blog

  27. Jeff Jan 7, 2015 9:16 am

    Whether you guys like it or not, Perry will continue to preach as he should. Here is a question for all of you…..what if everything you have been taught your entire life is false? What if you were brought up in “church” and this entire “Jesus” deal is completely false? You people are the reason for so much blood shed over the years.

    • Stephen Jan 7, 2015 10:03 am

      Your question made absolutely no sense.

    • Daniel G. Jan 7, 2015 10:39 am

      No, it does not make any sense. In fact, it is a question that might be better posed for yourself and other defenders of NS. You seem to shun debate and critical thinking which only lends credence to the fact that you might not care about the truth. The rest of us discuss these things and criticize what we perceive as falsehoods because we truly care about the truth and whether or not we are right/wrong about things we believe.

  28. Pingback: Round-up: responses to Perry Noble on the Ten Commandments | discern.org

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