Noble: We don’t fight critics (except when we do)
Posted: October 14th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Critics, Fatalism, Nehemiah, Noble | 50 Comments »Perry Noble took a few minutes to coach his congregations on how not to respond to critics last Sunday. Here’s some of what he said (after bragging about asking God for permission to throw over the table of a young woman at a local restaurant who dared to talk about entertainment in church within earshot of Noble):
We don’t fight battles with people that claim to be Christian but don’t like us.
We don’t fight battles with bloggers. We don’t read the stuff, we don’t go on and comment, we don’t do that stuff.
You know why? That’s not our calling. Our calling is to preach the Gospel…and I don’t have time, and neither do any of you, to worry about what people say. We can’t control what they say. We can control what Jesus says to us, and whether or not we’re obedient to it.
Recently we had to release a staff member over him responding to a critic, and he went over the line and confessed some stuff that he did. He said some stuff that he shouldn’t have said. (We don’t have the unabomber. He didn’t blow up anybody’s house. Don’t worry.) And we had to talk to some church members that did some things. And we’re like, “Listen guys, we don’t fight these people.”…
Let me just kind of coach you. If you see people and bloggers and stuff, don’t fight with these people. Because here’s the deal. If we’re wrong, and we’re doing it wrong, God will, like, blow this place up, and they can come celebrate the bonfire.
But if we’re right, if we’re preaching the gospel and lives are being changed, it can’t be stopped. It’s in God’s hands, not ours.
Here’s the video.
In his talk and later that night, he reported this:
I loved coaching our church today on how to respond to critics…we DON’T fight with them (see Nehemiah 6:1-4)…as Rick Warren says…we OUTLOVE them, OUTLIVE them and OUTFRUIT them.
Sounds nice (except for the outlive them bit), but Noble’s proof texting completely contradicts his don’t-fight advice. This passage is a favorite of pastors like Noble, but the problem is that most of his critics are not analogous to Nehemiah’s enemies. As I explained in more detail a few months ago, the differences are manifold.
- Nehemiah was responding to a lie.
- Nehemiah did reply.
- Nehemiah faced real mortal enemies who plotted to take his life.
In calling for passivity, Noble once again paints his critics as enemies of God. So long as he keeps doing that, why would he honestly expect that his followers would take his advice seriously?
At the beginning of his coaching session, Noble acknowledged that he is a controversial character, so we assume that no-one should be surprised that he attracts some criticism. Instead of defending his controversial behaviors and beliefs, his argument to his congregation is roughly as follows:
- People who don’t like Perry are not really Christians. This is the same as his Nehemiah argument. If you criticize Perry, you are the enemy.
- Don’t read their blogs or even try to persuade them that we’re right. Just for context, this is coming from a blogger and major-league tweeter. If you have the truth on your side, where’s the threat in reading other blogs?
- God will stop us if we’re wrong. Coming from a teacher of the gospel, this is the height of irresponsibility. It’s also what Joseph Smith said. It’s what every heretic says. And it’s what Peter said in 2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.” Peter says that God will “blow up” false teachers, but not immediately. That’s why believers are required to test the truth of what a teacher says, not just assume that because he’s temporarily successful that everything is alright. It’s a fatalistic argument, and one we’ve dealt with before.
Perry’s warning against fighting isn’t terribly persuasive, especially given what else he said. He starts the illustration by asking God if he could fight a young woman at a fast-food restaurant who wasn’t even talking to Perry. The only reason that he didn’t is because God told him, after Noble sent up a quick prayer request, that he couldn’t. He then claims that his critics are sons of Satan, then he tops off the whole performance by wanting to hurl food at the young woman after hearing the testimony another young lady.
If this man were your boss, what kind of response to critics do you think would impress him most?
A while back I asked, When you call us sons and daughters of the Devil, what kinds of passions do you unleash and endorse among your true believers?
Based on his report of misadventure among his staff and church members, the answer appears to be “not good ones.”
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I do not have the time or energy to call out each of the misrepresentations in the above post. In general terms, my objection to this post is that you’ve taken examples which were offered as what not to do, and then you’ve implied that Noble was endorsing those behaviors.
I encourage everyone to actually watch the video of this sermon before casting judgment on Noble’s advice to his congregants.
JT,
Seems like you’ve taken to heart Perry’s instruction…
On another note,
I seem to remember Perry looking directly into the camera and saying something to the effect of, “I’ll take every negative email and I’ll listen to every blogger and I’ll listen to every critic…”
Doesn’t really seem to fall in line with this recent thinking…
Great post and points.
Who is the pastor who was let go. Was it Shane Duffey from the post where he made the comment about running over critics? I hope not, I thought that was just a joke (albeit not a very funny one).
I wonder how many folks who hear the reference of Nehemiah 6 will think, “The folks who disagree with us are all Sanballats.”
few comments…
isn’t he using his blog and tweets and sermons to criticize those who criticize him with their blogs, tweets, and sermons?
so does this mean that if anyone in their congregation has a concern or even a criticism, the door is open to perry’s office? or, do they get the same treatment.
lastly, i think we should shudder in fear at his last statment,
“Because here’s the deal. If we’re wrong, and we’re doing it wrong, God will, like, blow this place up, and they can come celebrate the bonfire.”
Regardless of Perry’s context or anyone for that matter, this statement is exactly how false teaching survives. I would like to know exactly where Perry gets this revelation. I look at scripture and church history, i see people and churches “doing it wrong” for centuries and actually flourishing while the faithful are persecuted and killed.
Lastly, Perry seems to think that evangelism is the primary goal of the christian life and the church. I would argue that the end\primary goal should be Christlikeness where evangelism is a part of the Christian life and church. Taken wholistically the methods are just as important and the results.
Great points, Paul!
Has anyone else ever heard that definition of “entertainment”?
I’m so glad that my pastor doesn’t express his desire to beat up on girls. That is really SCARY! How insecure is this dude? I don’t care how much I might respect my pastor, once in a while I am going to say something that would be offensive to him. How freaky would it be if my pastor was boasting about wanting to hurt a woman who made such an innocuous statement as that. I would never feel safe around that dude!
i have never been to newspring but someone told me to look at this site and now that i see how you bash them and perry noble i will be attending this sunday and every sunday to come. i watched a few sermons online today and it looks awesome i will be at newspring sunday and will invite everyone i know to check it out …thanks pajama page guy
Really? Really? I mean, REALLY?
[joke] — noun
a humorous anecdote or remark intended to provoke laughter [Princeton]
something said for the sake of exciting a laugh; something witty or sportive (commonly indicating more of hilarity or humor than jest); a jest; a witticism; as, to crack good-natured jokes. [1913 Webster]
Why do all Noble defenders insist we watch the whole sermon as if we do not watch them? Why?
Very good post btw…
Let me get this straight: NS fired someone (“let go” – nice euphemism) for attacking a critic? What did he or she do? Run them over? Comment on a blog? Write their own blog? What exactly constitutes a fireable offense at NS? And … if it’s worth firing someone for, shouldn’t NS-ers need to know, so they could — ya know — avoid the same behavior? As I see it, this must have been something substantial. If it was harmless, then there’s no need to fire anyone. If it wasn’t harmless, then shouldn’t NS-ers worry – in spite of what their Pastor tells them?
My bet? It was LTaguba for her Delta comment. How ridiculous. Or maybe it was Cooper. Maybe he called PP Bamf, or something.
Also, this feels a bit like Communist China. 1. NS-ers are not allowed to criticize Perry. 2. They are not to read anyone who criticizes Perry. 3. They are not to defend Perry.
Shouldn’t Perry say just the opposite? Something like … “NS-ers, we have critics. We have people who disagree with our methods. Let’s defend ourselves. Let’s go to their forum and explain why it is we do things in a certain way. Create your own blog defending NS. Let’s beat them at their own game. I will spend 1 week on my own blog defending myself and then it’s up to you.”
He acts like his “coaching” is manly. It’s not. It’s wimpy, weak, and shows that Perry is too delicate and fragile to actually engage criticism. Why does Perry hide behind this thin veil of weakness? If he had an argument to make, then he should make it.
Good defense Coffee!
Oh wait…maybe not…
Ephesians 5:4 -
Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Tommy F,
The easy answer is Perry Noble knows the Word of God will shine the light of truth upon his antics, filthy mouth, errors, and false teachings(as seen in this post), therefore he will not openly defend himself in an open arena. The sad fact is he hides behind so many walls to defend himself while casting stones over the wall towards his critics.
Perry’s arrogance about God stopping him leaves him open to a ridiculous charge. Let’s say that lightning strikes a NS building this week. Or a pipe bursts and ruins Perry’s computer. Should we and he assume that these are attempts by God to get his attention? Such divination is absurd, but it’s precisely what Perry is proposing.
Said differently, what if a woman said: God if you don’t want me to marry my boyfriend, please make sure he gets run over before I walk down the aisle. And on the wedding day when her friends are telling her not to marry the boyfriend (because he’s an unbeliever), she can claim God’s authority and approval, since the boyfriend survived. After all she gave God time to stop the wedding.
By Perry’s twisted logic a flat tire means God doesn’t want me at work tomorrow. Or if my alarm doesn’t go off. Or … well you get the point.
Here’s one point where I agree with most of the anti-NewSpring posters here on Pajama Pages:
Noble’s “God will blow us up if we are wrong” argument is wrong. And the scripture that Noble uses to argue this point (Acts 5) means exactly the opposite of what he says it means.
JT, I assume you’re not a NS member. Posting on blogs like this is forbidden, but imagine if they knew you agreed with us on something. God help you, my friend.
CC, how do you know his beat-up-the-girl story is a joke? There are three ways to interpret his quite detailed story:
1) It’s true.
2) It’s a joke.
3) It’s a lie.
I’m going with #1.
If you think it’s #2, is that any better? Given the range of fictional characters he could have selected from, he chooses to pick on a young lady?
If it’s #3, just how much of each sermon is built on such lies? Was the salvation story also a lie?
Duncan,
I generally try to assume the best of people, but I feel like I’m in the twilight zone with you. What I thought were pretty simple conversational techniques seem to go right over your head. I know you guys don’t really care much for pop culture, but it might serve you well to watch Comedy Central every once in a while. If you can’t bring yourself to do that, perhaps some old Tim Allen videos on YouTube would be acceptable?
Here’s a hint: The story is real. The part about wanting to beat up a girl is obviously a joke.
Also, listening seems to be a lost art here as well. If you listen to the excerpt, Noble said that they let the staff member go because he “went over the line” and “said some things that he shouldn’t have said”, not because he simply responded to critics. But it is obviously a staff policy to not spend time responding to critics.
And to your comment to JT, members are not “forbidden” to respond to critics. At least, that little nugget was nowhere in the excerpt you posted. He did say they had to talk to some members and tell them “we don’t fight these people”, because they (evidently) went over the line like the staff member did.
PS – Having to explain humor and correct misquotes and misunderstanding is extremely distracting from actually defending the methods used by churches like NS. No wonder they’ve all decided to ignore you guys. Trying to defend them to you is completely fruitless.
Corner Coffee,
I applaud your guts to go against your pastor. He did forbid your participation in this blog (haven’t you wondered where everyone else is tonight?).
Try following your own advice and listening (and reading) yourself. He says: “We don’t fight battles with bloggers. We don’t read the stuff, we don’t go on and comment, we don’t do that stuff.”
Remember, this is the part where he’s coaching the congregation. This is not a suggestion. It’s a description about appropriate NS behavior, in light of firing a staff member and talking to some members about their inappropriate behavior.
Hope you guys don’t mind me jumping in with my 2 cents…..
Personally, I think he makes up most of his stories (or at least the truth is far from what really happened). I’ve listened to way too many of his “sermons” and read too much of his blog over the years and my conclusion is that his justification for what he does at NS really hinges on people that disagree with him. He feeds off of it. For a man who says he doesn’t have time for critics because he is “busy charging Hell with a water pistol”, he sure does spend enough time talking about them. Believe me or not, I’ve heard him make up scripture, use faulty data that he knows is misleading (which I confronted him on) and straight up make up stories that have no factual truth to them enough times that I take what he says with a grain of salt.
Tommy,
If he were my pastor, I’d probably still come here (not that doing so makes any difference).
Joe,
You’ll forgive me if I don’t take your word for it.
I would like to mention that the staff person fired was not fired for replying to a critic but the way in which it was done and for the things this person said, as Perry explains in the sermon (I know because I was there when it he said it). He did not keep his cool. Thats the story, its not like he said one reply and was fired, but its what he said and how he handled it.
Thanks, Seth.
I’ve been chastised in these comments for taking Noble at his word, so it’s good to have someone who heard him in person come by and clear that up.
Now run away before they see that you’re here.
Uhh, yeah, Mr. Coffee, They make a lot of different jokes on Comedy Central, including jokes about doing mean things to women. If I wanted to watch Comedy Central, I would call the cable guy and order Comedy Central or, as you suggested, search for some fun YouTube videos.
Just because the world does something, doesn’t mean that it needs to be done in church–obviously.
That part of the church with the seats and the huge stage used to be called the “sanctuary”. It should indeed be that, for both the men and the women in attendance. The world offers us, at best a mixed bag. The comedy channel has some really fun shows, and some really sick garbage. Some music on the radio is beautiful, much of it is carnal, if not obscene. There are good magazines at the drug store, and there are filthy ones. The talk coming from the Pastor in the sanctuary should not be that. We can get that mishmash everywhere else in the world.
Is it really worth sacrificing the safety and sacredness of the sanctuary so that a few men who like and understand a certain kind of humor will be entertained?
Sylvia,
1. There is NOTHING sacred about ANY church auditorium. Just like there is NOTHING sacred about the pages and ink used to print a Bible.
2. Just because the world does something, doesn’t mean it’s forbidden to be done in church, either.
3. Humor seems to be lost on the people here, which is why I suggested you guys go watch some comedy before you criticize pastors like Noble. What he said was funny, and you may have seen it for what it was if you were better at recognizing humor.
sacred: 1 dedicated or set apart for the service or worship of a deity (Merriam-Webster)
Seriously. Wow, if a church sanctuary isn’t that, we’re in trouble.
Mr Coffee,
Don’t you get it? We can get stupid comedy anywhere. We can all watch Comedy Central if we want to. Anybody who wants a TV can pretty much get one, or a computer, or a DVD player. If we don’t like cable, there’s even tons and tons of “Christian” and “clean” material out there. Seriously, we can all laugh ourselves silly without ever having to enter a church.
If a man feels that his calling is as a comedian, doing Tim-Allen style humor or whatever, then he can jolly well enter the competitive world of stand up comedy. It’s not an easy profession, but talented people who work really hard are able to make a living at it, some of them in expressly Christian markets. What he shouldn’t do, is become a pastor and use the flock’s tithes and offerings to fund his artistic pursuits and the congregation as a captive audience to show off his routines. That’s kinda cheating, see. Firstly, it’s cheating because he’s circumventing the highly competitive performance art scene, and using his pulpit as a venue for his performance, which, in the real art scene, nobody would likely pay money to hear. More importantly, of course, it is cheating the flock who came to church to be fed from the Word of God, not to see a vastly inferior version of the comedy that they could have stayed home and watched on television.
Sylvia,
I’m assuming your pastor has never used a joke or a humorous anecdote in church. Because if he has, that makes you a giant hypocrite.
But of course, why stop at humor? Why waste the “flock’s tithes and offerings” by purchasing seats? Everyone is perfectly capable of standing through a sermon. Why waste money on a sound system? Everyone can just huddle really close to the pastor, and he can speak really loud.
It’s about information retention. If you want people to be receptive to hearing what you have to say, you put them in a comfortable seat, you use a sound system to make sure they can hear your words adequately, and you use humor and illustrations to help them remember the teaching. These are all tools we have readily available to us in 2009.
Are these things necessary? Of course not. But I’d be willing to bet you don’t go around criticizing people for using the first two.
All this, and you STILL miss my point. You criticize a pastor because you misunderstood his joke as being serious. You misunderstood because you evidently don’t understand good humor.
That’s a YOU problem.
CC,
For the sake of argument, let’s stipulate that it was supposed to be a joke.
Here’s a CEO who apparently just fired an employee for doing the kinds of things that Noble is joking and fantasizing about from the pulpit. He thinks it’s funny, he wants his congregation to think it’s funny, but he’s just fired someone for it because it wasn’t funny.
A bit of a mixed message, don’t you think?
For the record, I still don’t see the humor. I don’t think it’s funny, and I think he meant it.
I was not arguing that the humor was a luxury. I was arguing that it was a distraction, to put it lightly–an unnecessary stumbling block Chairs and sound systems(within reason)are not distractions. They help the preacher to teach and the congregation to worship.
I may well be the only person troubled by jokes about beating up girls. But, if I’m not, there may be people every bit as humor-impaired as I (allegedly) am in the congregation. I know very few evangelical congregations that don’t have their don’t-own-a-television populations. These people should be able to hear the Word of God too. It isn’t just for the cool, smart, witty people.
The congregation should be more important that Perry, get it? A shepherd should lay down his life for his sheep. Not only do pretty much all pastors tell jokes, every pastor has probably told an ill-advised joke in his day. Their hearts, however, should be to glorify God, and edify their congregations with everything they say up there. That is what I am not seeing here. There are shepherds who, far short of laying down their lives, are not even willing to lay down the opportunity to use their best material, even at the expense of the congregation.
I think it WAS a joke, but I don’t see how that excuses it at all. Is anything admissable from the pulpit, as long as we say we were just joking?
Sylvia,
For me, humor is NOT a distraction. My guess is that the general population shares my affection for a good laugh, and a funny pastor is generally someone who can break down walls that people put up. I’ve seen it disarm non-believers and make them very receptive to hearing what the pastor has to say.
I doubt very seriously that NS has a large (if any) population of people who don’t watch TV or go to movies.
And your judgment of Noble’s heart is the only thing that I believe is ill-advised here.
Downing,
A guy goes to his doctor, and his doctor says “The test results say you have 3 days to live. The really bad news is that I got the test results in 2 days ago.” (hardy har har)
Now, I COULD go on and on about how awful that joke is because it condones medical malpractice, it makes light of a man’s last few days and his disappointment in it suddenly shrinking to 1 day.
I could. But I’d be a moron if I did.
Duncan,
It doesn’t surprise me at all that you would assume the worst about Noble. I’m so very glad that, despite the tone of his speech and the laughter that followed, you are absolutely sure that he wanted to cause physical bodily harm to a female. Completely convinced of it.
You guys sure know how to just suck the humor right out of something. We’ll obviously never see eye-to-eye on this, so it’s probably best we just move on.
“Now, I COULD go on and on about how awful that joke is because it condones medical malpractice, it makes light of a man’s last few days and his disappointment in it suddenly shrinking to 1 day.
I could. But I’d be a moron if I did.”
Wow.
Wow. We’ve reached a new low for rediculous comments here.
I never said I was good at the comedy thing
All humor has to have a kernel of truth in it for it to work. I’ve heard PN tell a similar story a few months ago about asking God for permission to beat up a man at Sams Club–also in front of his wife and child. Search his blog for “punch in the throat” for a few more examples.
Do you suppose that we’re totally stupid to think that this man’s first response to criticism is angry and violent? God–so far–keeps talking him out of acting it out, but there’s something there.
I repeat a point made earlier. The insensitivity is amazing. He’s informing his church about a staffer’s overreaction to criticism–and does so by joking about PN’s own fantasies of overreaction. At least pick another time to tell your beat-up-the-girl “joke.”
Also, I’m with Sylvia. There’s nothing funny about violence against women.
One further thought about the firing of the staff member.
According to Noble’s logic, you should not criticize Noble.
And in case one was tempted to help stop the criticism, you should also not defend Noble from those who criticize Noble.
So, NS-ers should skip the criticism and skip the defense of the criticism. Huh?
If I were the employee, I’d claim unfair dismissal from the fuzzy logic that Noble is promoting. After all remember Noble’s ridiculous logic, God didn’t stop the employee from whatever he/she did. God must have endorsed it.
Shouldn’t the employee have said to Noble: “God never stopped me. I thought he approved.”
Duncan,
“All humor has to have a kernel of truth in it for it to work”
Absolutely true. But exaggerating your reaction from “I got really upset/angry” to “I wanted to kill them!” for the sake of dramatic and/or humorous effect is not uncommon. I do it quite frequently.
I don’t think you’re stupid, but I keep getting pushback over the fact that he made a joke AS IF the content of the joke was his actual reaction.
“He’s informing his church about a staffer’s overreaction to criticism–and does so by joking about PN’s own fantasies of overreaction.”
This is the only valid criticism I’ve seen so far. But it’s important to note (while we dealing with the facts of the situation) that he did not act upon his desire to argue with the girl. If I were a staffer at his church, I wouldn’t be confused at his desire to react, or his joking about his desire to react, so long as he, himself, didn’t react. The point of the story could very easily be “I understand your desire to react. Here’s a humorous story that exemplifies my understanding of that desire. I didn’t react. Neither should you.”
“There’s nothing funny about violence against women.”
Indeed. And if he was telling a story about his experience actually beating up a woman, I wouldn’t be slapping my knee either. But he wasn’t.
Does anyone else remember that line from The Honeymooners?
“One of these days, Alice … to the moon!”
He wasn’t serious. It was a joke. And it was VERY funny!
Tommy,
As JT said above, this is a valid criticism. Bad things happen all the time, and God lets them happen. He needs to stop using that one. It just doesn’t make any sense.
(So, correction to my above comment. There are 2 valid criticisms I’ve seen so far. The one Tommy mentioned, though, is the only one that I think really stands up.)
CC,
To quote the joker: “Everything in me, everything in me” wanted to do it.
Duncan,
You know that quote was referring to putting his arm around her and asking if she went to church to be bored. Here’s the quote, in context. Note the use of the word “and” in its transitional form:
“And I’m like ‘God, she’s a girl, but I’ll take her out. I mean, I’ll do it right now, Lord.’, and everything in me, everything in me — I just gotta be honest, I struggle just like you (…) — I wanted to look at Lucretia and Charisse and say (I’ll be right back), I wanna kinda go sit down and put my arm around her and say “Do you go to church to be bored??? Do you go to church to be bored???”
(edited for length)
Coffee – read the first 12 words of the quote you just posted.
Sylvia (or any other lady), how would you have felt having him come and put his arm around you like that?
1. The girl obviously provoked him. I doubt she would have been surprised or upset. She was looking to start a fight about it. (at least according to Noble’s version of the events)
2. HE DIDN’T DO IT. He wanted to, but he didn’t. That’s the point!!! He admitted he was wrong. He went ON and ON about how he was wrong for wanting to do it. He used it as an illustration to his congregation on what NOT TO DO.
What more do you want from the guy?
Corner Coffee
Duncan just wants Perry to be perfect like his pastor at his church.
I personally find it fresh that the Pastor shares what he struggles with to the congregation, it makes him more human and shows that he is a normal person who struggles with normal things. Kind of like what Paul does in Romans 7:14-21. Paul is honest and shows that he is really no different than anyone else. I count it as a humility thing, when one can confess their short-comings infront of thousands of people.
Coffee,
I said the same thing in the very first comment, which was ignored:
“In general terms, my objection to this post is that you’ve taken examples which were offered as what not to do, and then you’ve implied that Noble was endorsing those behaviors.”
At least we seem to have reached a consensus that it wasn’t a joke.
Duncan,
Are we seriously back here … again? I’m just going to quote what I said above:
“The story is real. The part about wanting to beat up a girl is obviously a joke.”
Sorry, CC, I must have misread you.
I do see it clearly now. A pastor confessing to consuming violent urges against young Christian women is absolutely hilarious, especially when he’s setting up a story about a staffer whom he just fired.
What a riot.
Duncan,
Does any humor NOT offend you?
CC, I found this stuff pretty funny.
Mr.Duncan,
I would like to think that I would scream bloody murder, but, wow, I don’t even know. I already find the guy terrifying, I wonder if I wouldn’t just shut down completely. I mean, the thought of a person coming up and just feeling free to touch me like that, and then speaking in that really ridiculing tone—-it just has such an ugly, gendered, bullying quality to it.
The dude expressed his desire to, firstly, destabilize her by invading her space, secondly create a false dichotomy; entertained vs. bored (I think the right answer is “C”‘fed from the word of God’)and, thirdly, try to pass off a bogus and contrived definition of the word “entertainment”. Basically, he was talking about bullying her into accepting a completely fallacious argument through brute domination.
Ugh, I’m sorry if I sound like Ms.Magazine here. That’s really not where I’m coming from at all. Its actually because I’m NOT a feminist that I wish that pastor’s like this and the men in their congregations would lead with gentleness and consider the entire flock, not just the unregenerate, 30-something, male Jackie Gleason fans who might be visiting.