Noble’s Defense of Multi-site Churches
Posted: September 16th, 2009 | Author: James Downing | Tags: Criticism, Newspring, Noble | 39 Comments »After watching this clip, I didn’t know whether to laugh, cry, or just be angry. I think I’m starting to settle in on anger, and here’s why:
- He starts out by saying people have problems with multi-site churches because they played basketball for a team that didn’t keep score because everybody was a winner, and you think life should treat you fairly. Not only is this one of the more ridiculous statements ever made, it insinuates that ministers who disagree with Perry are just afraid of the competition. That’s right, Noble’s response to a serious, pertinent issue facing the modern church is to insult the manhood of those asking the question.
- Next, he says that a pastor who criticizes the multi-site model is just an insecure pastor. As we’ve seen far too often with this crowd, it isn’t possible to have a legitimate biblical concern with one of these guys. It is clear: If you disagree with Perry, you are wrong, and the only reason you could have for that disagreement comes from some flaw in your character.
- He says we have to stop competing with each other. This is quite confusing, considering that his opening argument was that we aren’t competitive enough.
- He says when a Pastor walks out on stage and takes shots at other Pastors, he needs to repent before God. What a hypocrite! And I’m not talking about the fact that he does this every Sunday. He’s already done it twice in this two minute clip!
- Finally, and this is by far the most serious error in this ridiculous little clip, Perry claims Acts 8:1 as the biblical backing for his multi-site model. One quick glance at that scripture shows that it says nothing about 21st century, video-driven, church campuses. In fact, the only argument that could possibly relate is by reading down to verse 4. It states that all the individuals who were scattered through the region preached the word wherever they went. This is much more indicative of individual church plants being sent out from one central place, than anything dealing with one Pastor preaching to multiple sites. Regardless, none of that is the point. If you read that passage of scripture, it is clearly about the execution of Steven and how God even used the persecution to advance His Kingdom. Perry Noble pays tremendous disrespect to the text by twisting it to claim God’s endorsement of Perry’s empire. I am not stating this as an opinion. Perry is dead-wrong in his treatment of this scripture. Now, there are only two possibilities: Either He’s an ignorant buffoon that is completely incapable of understanding such a simple passage, or he is purposefully twisting Scripture to accomplish his own agenda. I’ve seen him do this too many times now to believe that it was accidental.
Why is this such a big deal? 900 people were baptised at Newspring Sunday. With a shepherd who has no respect for God’s word, what is to come of all these new converts?
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Ridiculous. I’ve had pretty low expectations of Perry for a while now, but this is record-breaking.
This is blatant misuse of scripture for an arrogant man’s personal gain. I don’t see how members were able to swallow this filth…
can please someone tell me how this guy ever became a pastor? The Bible clearly teaches a man who desire to elder/pastor must have sound doctrine, be able to faithfully teach God’s word, have a life that is marked by unquestionable character, and be tested, sent and approved by a church. From what I have seen, Noble not only has poor theology, he is hostile to anyone who could challenge his poor theology. He clearly reads things in the Bible that aren’t there. He is great at teaching anythig but the Bible. His rants on things he doesn’t like, but yet is guilty of the same things shows major character issues. Lastly, I have looked and looked and I still cannot find anyone or any recrod that shows Noble was ever tested, approved, and sent out to do the work of an elder. I have often wondered how this guy has remained a pastor. It then hit me…the people at newspring like it. They like what they are hearing as the applause is heard in the background. They are his disciples, and they follow him. Unless God is gracious and brings conviction and repentance, and they not only begin to obey the Bible, but hold Noble accountable to it, Newspring will follow Perry until his death, and then the church will probably die with him because he has lead them no where.
Simply for clarity – this may be video from one of the conferences. It doesn’t matter in terms of truth, I just don’t want that to become a strawman; that somehow because we don’t know who he was speaking to, our criticism is invalid.
However, it may be at Newspring. I honestly don’t know. Just looks like the word behind him may be “UNLEASH”, which i think is the name of a conference.
Downing,
You make a good point. However, i still stand by my comment. He uses Scripture the same way at Newspring. There are plenty of examples about that.
If this is UNLEASH, in my opinion, this is worse. Is not UNLEASH a church planters conference? If so, there are potential pastors who are applauding his everyone word, and approving of his rants and remarks. In many ways, this shows how great Biblical illiteracy is…even among pastors.
Yeah, I don’t know anything about Unleash, but in my eyes it doesn’t effect the truth of what you’ve said. I just sometimes see these diversive argument tactics befoer they even happen.
Having been around a ton of these church planters, you wouldn’t believe the number of them that quote Perry as if his word is scripture. As unlikely as it seems, he is a very influential man in certain circles.
UNLEASH is NewSpring’s own conference for church planters. He’s not just a guest; he owns it.
Ok, so it is at Newspring AND Unleash.
It almost sounds like a little jeering when he makes the basketball reference. It is clearly covered by laughter and applause, but there is kind of an odd moment there.
Don’t you love the way he makes fun of fat kids here? At least those fat kids didn’t snore.
I’m not the defender of Perry Noble, but after reading this blog for a couple of months now, I have seen a trend. Your “concern”/hatred for him SOMETIMES causes you to take anything he says and automatically twist it yourself to prove your point, which is the same thing you accuse him of. I was at this conference sitting in this session, and I had some big problems with some things that he said but this was not one of them.
My take on this clip:
1. There is no doubt the scripture reference has nothing to do with Multi Site. No one could argue he’s got solid ground to stand on here for this particular text.
2. He was actually trying to encourage other pastors. You forget to mention that one. He say’s “If god has called you keep preaching and proclaiming the word of God, and don’t worry about the church going Multi Site.
3. The mistake IMHO that Perry makes that gives you so much ammunition is that he talks in very general terms when he’s really speaking to a specific audience. His jab about the basketball players was specifically pointed towards guys who’s argument is that it doesn’t give preachers a chance to preach, which IS a very weak argument against multisite.
4. All of the insecure references are pointed towards the same crowd and it is those leaders who are scared, because in actuality they are insecure.
Obviously serious discussions need to be had about multisite, and I doubt that Perry Noble is afraid to have those, but this 1 clip that you picked out and proof texted for your blog is targeted at Church Leaders who don’t want multi site because a growing church might move into their town.
Keep searching the clips from this session (which by the way where do you find the time to search Youtube from a conference from March) and you will find some clips with some very shaky stuff in it. He definitely had an agenda in this opening session, and to me who lost his points in his jabs.
jason,
you make some good points. i think the issue is bigger than just multi-site churches. I am curious to know something that perhaps you can answer since you were there. why do church planters flock to this guy? His handling of GOd’s WOrd, his character, and his overall theology is problematic at best.
Within just a couple of minutes, Perry shows himself to be insulting, hypocritical, unbiblical, contradictory and illogical.
He did have a nice shirt though.
Wow. Jason, so it’s my hatred for Noble that makes me wish he was more careful with Scripture? So, if you admit he got the scripture wrong, which do you say it is? Ignorance, or purposeful manipulation? If you think it’s ignorance, I’ll show you 50 other times where he does the same thing. This guy has no regard for Scripture, period. Why is everyone so eager to give him a pass. If more people would call his crap on this stuff, a lot of problems could be avoided in the future.
You said yourself, he got up there with an ax to grind, and this wasn’t even the worse clip. So what was it again in my article that you had a problem with?
James let me explain….
Yes his scripture reference was awful, but it was a reference, and he barely spent anytime on it. Should he have used it, NO!
Hatred may have been a little strong, but I have noticed that you seek out Perry Noble video clips, and tweets. (I’m assuming you follow him on twitter) I do believe people should be guarded about the pastors that they let speak in their life, but there are times when you take 1 statement and try to interpret what he is saying at a much larger level than he intended.
Now saying all of that, if you feel that God has called you to Perry Noble, and has given you a burden for his heart and ministry then I would just be careful that you don’t “headhunt”
I have many concerns about his sermons, his attitude, and his mouth, but I get concerned as I pass across them, I don’t go looking for them.
I hope that made sense…
Paul….the answer is simple. His church has exploded with growth. Church planters chase after success stories with intensity. I actually heard Perry about 5 years ago at a different conference, and I can honestly say he was WAY less angry. Something has definitely happened in his heart.
Jason, that’s a fair assessment, and I will just say that if you knew more of my life situation, you may understand more fully. However, that’s not really important. I will explain where all these clips and tweets come from; They are everywhere. Especially in my world, these guys are just kind of omni-present, and 98% of it is stuff they produce and put out for themselves. It’s kind of telling to me that I am only consuming their very best material, because that is what they choose to put out…and this is the best they have to offer.
Jason, are you a prospective planter?
James….No I’m actually a teaching pastor in Louisville KY
If anything Acts 8 should cause Perry (and others) to rethink the Multi-site movement, as he’s currently executing it. Here’s why:
Acts 8:4 doesn’t say: one person preached to all the people (like a multi-site video feed church). It says those that were scattered did … after widespread persecution and what appears to have been a mini-diaspora. This is the opposite of a multi-site church, where one person preaches to many. It’s the diffusion of a central HQ. It’s a house-to-house movement, not an Anderson-to-Greenville/Cola/Florence feed. It’s the precise opposite of driving to a campus to watch a video screen. It’s focus is not on the one, but instead on the many.
Most critics of the multi-site movement have a slightly different complaint that Noble doesn’t acknowledge (at least here). NS can justifiably have many sites, but why send a feed from Anderson? Why not call a pastor for each site? This is the real question that Perry avoids answering. Why not scatter ministers all over and let the anointed preach (like Acts 8)? Why not call some of those excellent members of the Coaching Network (that he bragged on yesterday) to pastor a NS plant? Why just Perry?
[...] Pajama Pages lists several things wrong in this two minute clip. Concerning Noble’s interpretation of the passage to justify multi-site churches: One quick glance at that scripture shows that it says nothing about 21st century, video-driven, church campuses. In fact, the only argument that could possibly relate is by reading down to verse 4. It states that all the individuals who were scattered through the region preached the word wherever they went. This is much more indicative of individual church plants being sent out from one central place, than anything dealing with one Pastor preaching to multiple sites. Regardless, none of that is the point. If you read that passage of scripture, it is clearly about the execution of Steven and how God even used the persecution to advance His Kingdom. Perry Noble pays tremendous disrespect to the text by twisting it to claim God’s endorsement of Perry’s empire. I am not stating this as an opinion. Perry is dead-wrong in his treatment of this scripture. [...]
Jason, I am also a pastor in Louisville.
Jason and Tim – It’s good to see that solid people are still leading churches somewhere in the country. Here in Charlotte, we have Furtick, a bunch of clones, and then the REALLY bad guys. (Rick Joyner, Mahesh Chavda, Todd Bentley…it’s heretic central.) Sometimes it’s hard for me to understand that outside of my city, some good things are happening.
Without even addressing the multi-site issue, I can’t believe this guy is a pastor. It’s sad that so many people go to churches and sit through this.
I know I’m a total girl, but am I the only one scared of this guy? He takes on this really angry, ridiculing tone and does these wild-eyed, taunting facial gestures. I always feel like he’s about ready to smack me one—-and I’ve only seen him on video. Do I have baggage or something, or does he come off this way to anyone else?
The really sad thing is “if” any NewSpringer’s tried to ask Perry about his twisting of the Scriptures in this video they would be told to either conform or leave because NewSpring Church is not for you. I know this because it happened to me when I was a NewSpring member and I questioned NewSpring Church.
The most alarming thing to me in this video is Perry’s total disregard and disrespect for God’s Holy Word. If he wanted to defend his video feed empire then he should use his own logic instead of twisting God’s Word.
Nope. You’re right. He get pretty angry on Sundays as well. Maybe even more so.
Sylvia – The guys is a giant too, haha. Seriously, he’s like 6’5″ 300lbs.
By the way, I really liked your blog about “If we are the body” : http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendId=22221445&blogId=501548999
Well said, and a perspective I hadn’t really considered.
You’re not imagining things, Sylvia.
Here’s the result of a Google search for “punch” and PN.
Just when you think you’ve seen it all, here is a sterling quote from that link:
“Several times I have said from the stage and on this blog that someone has made me mad enough to want to punch them in the throat…and EVERY time someone sends in a comment about how a “godly” man would NEVER say something like that.
So I ask–is it ever ok for a pastor to be passionate…to use STRONG language–heck in some cases even to be offensive in what he says? Some people say no–and that is because their desire is for their pastor to be passive, wear sweater vests and listen to Clay Aiken.
”
It always comes back to insulting someone’s manhood for Perry. There is no possible biblical concern that can be raised against him. Nope. The problem is that you are a wimp, sissy, or gay. Nothing could be wrong with Perry’s methodology. Because he is a powerful guy in his little world, he has this inflated view of himself as some macho tough guy. I wish he’d just fight someone and get it over with. I personally have no desier to roll around in the dirt with another man, but I’m sure I can find someone more than will to go a few rounds with him. Then, we can end this myth in his mind that he is some super tough guy, and maybe we’ll see a little humility, rather than this testosterone fueld, empty bravado.
@ Sylvia:
PN’s bio on his Twitter account is “wannabe ultimate fighter.” “Ulitmate fighters” and their fans are modern day equivalents to the gladiators and spectators in Rome’s Coliseum. (Except that the “ultimate fighters” yearn to fight, whereas the Roman gladiators were forced to fight…which makes the ultimate fighters the more barbaric of the two in my opinion)
And usually, both “ultimate fighters” walk out of the ring, some limp.
While I have some legitimate questions about multi site venues, I don’t think that video venues are “not biblical”. Of course it’s not in the Bible because there wasn’t video, but reading through the letters of Paul you definitely get the idea that his 1 letter is passed around many times. I have no trouble imagining Paul using video to reach his churches through video. Now I think the most important thing is that these venues and campuses have a biblical church structure through discipline and caring (and most of them do)
If what’s being preached is biblical I don’t think it matters if it’s displayed on a video screen, and I think people who use the bible to say otherwise are as bad as multi site people using scripture to say it’s definitive!
Jason, I don’t disagree with you. The idea of a multi-site church is certainyl grey area as far as scripture is concerned. Now, I have no problem with anyone studying scritpure and formulating an opinion on the matter – your example of Paul’s letters is a good thought. Where my problem comes in, yes, on either side of the argument, is someone who decides what they are going to do, and then tries to twist scripture to make it fit their practice.
My argument against multi-site ould be very smilar to my argument against mega-churches that I posted a couple of weeks ago, “Mega-church Conundrum”.
If you read that article, I didn’t make any dogmatic statements, or any firm declarations from scripture. I presented my viewpoint with limited scriptural evidence that was available, and I was graceful to the other side of the arguement.
The same would be true for a multi-site conversation. However, Perry cuts that discussion short by insulting my manhood.
Paul addressed his letters to churches and church leaders. They weren’t sermons to be used in place of church, but teaching, encouragement and admonition that was to be incorporated into existing church activities. Paul was not the pastor of every Christian living in the Roman world.
This is at the latest unleash conference. I was there. i was playing in the band. He is talking to pastors. I will agree that his scripture isn’t the best. And i truly believe he will be held accountable for any amount of adding and subtracting he does to that scripture. however, he is speaking directly to the creator of this page.
to the original author: are you trying to bring godly, loving, paul-like correction so perry can more effectively preach the gospel? or are you trying to put down and distroy reputaion for your own gain and enjoyment. if you truly were concerned and wanted to see this “false teaching” corrected, have you gone to him? have you sent him an email? he answers inquires and he admits to his faults and shortcoming. you are even worse and will be held even more accountable for your divisiveness than perry will be for trying to reach the lost.
Thanks for the comment Scott – So you agree that he twisted he twisted Scripture here? And that’s not a big deal to you. Ok, it is to me.
To answer your question – my sincere desire is that Perry would repent of all his foolishness and lead these thousands of impressionable souls into a stronger relationship with the Lord.
As far as going to him – long story, but it is posted elsewhere on this blog. Short: He doesn’t talk to us. B – Where does the assumption come from the PUBLIC teaching requires PRIVATE rebuke? While Perry is the one in error here, his listeners risk error if they follow what he is saying. It is my duty as a believer to call out false teaching.
Lastly, did God himself tell you that I will be held more accountable than Perry? Where did you get that?
Scott,
the way your are describing how we should respond to perry is exactly how false teaching survives. John Mcarthur is very helpful here (and i’m paraphrasing). Those who twist the Bible often use the terms of unity, patience, private rebuke, mystery, etc. in maters of theology. The fact of the matter is that if false teaching can only survive in these type of atmospheres. Paul is greatly gentle with the sheep in his teaching, but has no patience for false teachers. he understood what was at stake. That’s why in Galatians he wishes the false teachers would castrate themselves. pretty strong language. Noble’s problem is not only is he twisting scripture, and teaching false things, he is often proud and arrogant about it when called out. i don’t wish he would mutilate himself, but i do wish and pray that he repents.
Scott,
Paul and Downing have given you a good response, but I’d add one more thing. It’s not just Perry who’s responsible for what he does with the Bible; you are too, especially when you know he’s corrupting it.
You’re willing to let Perry have an awkward moment before God, but how do you think that absolves you?
Have you talked to Perry about this kind of stuff?
Scott,
This blog seems to parallel Jude’s concern. Jude’s concern is for the followers and listeners of the teachers who are guilty of ethical and doctrinal error. His audience seems to be only those who may come across or are directly under the teachings of such teachers, rather than the teachers themselves. It’s been well-documented here that PNoble has many layers of people in place on purpose to prevent such conversations from taking place.
In many ways the audience for this blog is for those who listen to PNoble, SFurtick, BCoop, etc.
Noble quoted Acts 8 as his proof text for “multi-site” churches:
“Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.”
The text said THEY [Apostles] (PLURAL) . . . not just Pastor Peter went everywhere preaching.
It seems that Noble is the “insecure one.” If he were to be BIBLICAL, he would send OTHER MEN (PLURAL)to preach in those “multi-site” churches. Oh, wait a minute . . . if Noble did that, he could not take the credit.
Chadwick,
Right. No one has shown up to defend Noble & NS from my post (9/16, above). It’s as if he’s reading his own special Bible with his own special interpretation.