Perry Noble on Southern Baptists 30

Here’s what Noble tells you to think about his church.

It is time that the Christian community got beyond themselves…it is time that we begin looking for what IS working in other churches and ministries rather than sit around and criticize what is going on. Be secure enough to get outside of the circle of people who think, talk and act just like you!!!

Here’s what he tells pastors about what he really thinks about other churches.

We are part of the Southern Baptist Convention. We are part but not married to them. However they are kind of like the Titanic, they are sinking but instead of sinking they are just rearranging the chairs.

With talk like that, it’s probably just as well they’re not married.

30 thoughts on “Perry Noble on Southern Baptists

  1. David J Horn Oct 5, 2009 10:24 am

    More of Perry Noble’s odd views concerning the church etc… I wrote a blog the other week that deals with this issue here:

    http://davidjosephhorn.wordpress.com/2009/09/15/perry-nobles-defense-of-joel-osteen-and-td-jakes/

  2. Corner Coffee Oct 5, 2009 11:42 am

    I suppose when one borderline obsessive, Calvinist blog shuts down, another borderline obsessive — and surprise, surprise … Calvinist — blog is right there to pick up where the other left off.

    I’m new here, but after about 10 minutes of reading through the archives, I could already point out the countless inaccuracies, misinterpretations, and inconsistencies from one post to the next. But for now, I’ll just lurk. It will be, at the very least, entertaining.

  3. Paul Oct 5, 2009 12:24 pm

    Does Noble actually have a sermon where he does not mention “other churches” or reference “other churches”, or compare his church to “other churches”. In fact, is there any sermon where he does not boast of his own church, but just reads, exegetes, explains and applies the text? you know, the work of a preacher of God’s Word and not a motivational speaker.

  4. James Downing Oct 5, 2009 1:19 pm

    Paul, nope.

    I don’t really know what to make of the SBC / Titanic comment. Everyone knows there are issues with the SBC, and there are some great men of God addressing the issues. If Perry knows something that these guys don’t know, I’m sure they are up for listening.

    Lastly, is pragmatism really the best way to form doctrine?

  5. James Duncan Oct 5, 2009 1:25 pm

    The brave men on the Titanic gave up their seats for others and sang Christian hymns.

    How times have changed.

  6. Paul Oct 5, 2009 1:36 pm

    Downing,

    as a Southern Baptist myself, I am frustrated and even concerned about the state of the SBC. I have even contemplated in the past to leaving the SBC because of these concerns. THe SBC’s problems are very complicated, and I cannot do justice to them here. However, a few coments. Ironically, the theological and methodolotical problems I have with Newpsring are some of the problems i see in the SBC. Noble’s attidude towards the pastoral ministry, the Scriptures, his pragmantism, and much of his doctrine is unfortunately rampant in the SBC. Perhaps he should rethink his comment, and take a deep look within to see what part he has played in the iceberg that is sinking this “titanic”. Combine it with those pastors/churches that are leaning towards liberalism/emergent, all of sudden, you have a large percentage of the SBC. Yet, I have hope. God is faithful, and I have seen repentance. There are good and faithful men and women who are doing good cross-centered work with the Scriptures alone as their guide. I know many of them personally, and have even seen mini revivals and growth from true conversion. The seminaries are returning to doctrinal fidelity which will hopefully trickle down through the years. Even though the SBC President is not reformed, he has shown a willingness to be at peace with those that are, and labor and pray for the kingdom to advance.

  7. James Downing Oct 5, 2009 1:42 pm

    Corner Coffee – someone with such a great understanding as you (far greater than those of us who write for this board) has an implicit duty to correct those of us who aren’t as enlightened.

    Or, perhaps, you could just point out those places that you think we are in error, and we would be happy to discuss them with you. In the present state, your comment is of no benefit to anyone.

  8. James Downing Oct 5, 2009 1:51 pm

    Paul, I too am SBC. No doubt we have had our share of problems, but I am currently more optomistic than ever before about our future. As you mentioned, the seminaries have really buckled down, and the fruit is really starting to show. Many young pastors are starting to come along who are unapologetically preaching the Word, and of course the great men, Dr. Hunt, who are doing so much to make the neccessary changes to get the SBC back on track. I suppose there is alot of the bad that you mention, but for me, right now, the good far outweighs it. Be encouraged! There are great days ahead.

  9. Paul Oct 5, 2009 1:56 pm

    I hope so, and agree with you. That is why, unless the Holy Spirit leads me elsewhere, I hope to remain in the SBC, and Lord willing, pastor a church there.

  10. Paul Oct 5, 2009 3:07 pm

    Corner Coffee,

    apparently you have a problem with “calvinists”. Could you tell us why?

  11. Ben Oct 5, 2009 3:54 pm

    I’ll play along. What are your issues with this quote?

    “It is time that the Christian community got beyond themselves…it is time that we begin looking for what IS working in other churches and ministries rather than sit around and criticize what is going on. Be secure enough to get outside of the circle of people who think, talk and act just like you!!!

    Is this bad advice? If you just read it and didn’t know who said it would you have a problem with it? Is it not true that those outside of our church walls know more about what we don’t don’t stand for rather than what we do? Most people know what movie “the church” is going to boycott but doesn’t know what ministries the church offers.

    Maybe it’s just that Perry’s comment hits too close to home. Maybe the followers of Pajama Pages know that this is good advice for churches but that it would severly hurt the content of this site if you applied that principal here.

  12. Paul Oct 5, 2009 4:44 pm

    ben,

    I’ll respond…

    Is this bad advice? yes

    does it matter who said it? no.

    Is it not true that those outside of our church walls know more about what we don’t don’t stand for rather than what we do? Much can be said here. I’ll just limit it to this. It doesn’t matter what the rest of the world thinks. Even if we were perfect in telling the world what we do stand for, the world will still hate the church. The reason is not becasue of the church itself (although that might be the case sometimes), but it is because the world hates Jesus. Jesus said that himself.

    In the end, the problem I have with the quote is that it implies that Perry and Newspring are the ones doing it right solely because of pragmatism…it is “working.” It comes down once again to theology…Perry does not have a biblical understanding of the church. Because of this, his methods are unbiblical. His methods might be “working” but is God in it? Perry’s logic runs…I am doing this, the church is growing, it is working, therefore God is in it. the local mosque and mormon church where I live are growing too. According to Perry’s logic, God must be in that too.

  13. Corner Coffee Oct 5, 2009 7:44 pm

    James,
    No greater understanding. I assume you’re as rational as I am, but are plagued with a chip on your shoulder (for whatever reason).

    But since you asked, I’d be more than happy to keep reading, and when necessary, fulfill my “implicit duty” for you.

    Paul,
    I have no problem with your theology. I just have a problem with the things you guys do in the name of it.

  14. Sylvia Oct 5, 2009 8:49 pm

    Dear Coffee Corner,
    Please point out the inaccuracies, inconsistencies etc. that you have already observed.
    As a brother in Christ, you should not be finding bad theology, sinful behavior, or (even unintentional) libel to be “entertaining”. These things are dangerous, and if you see them on this blog, you should take them very seriously.
    People for whom Christ died are writing, and reading this blog. That is not a joke. If this is any more than a game to you, you should point out all of the inaccuracies that you have found in the archives. Perhaps the bloggers can correct them. If, for any reason, that does not happen, at least the readers of the comment section here will be set straight.

  15. Paul Oct 5, 2009 8:53 pm

    Corner Coffee,

    for the record, i am not a calvinist. I am a Christian. Calvin did not come up with the 5 points or anything else new. He simply studied teh Scriptures, and taught doctrine that is faithful to the Bible as like many that have gone before him such as Augustine, Ambrose of Milan, down to the Apostles themselves.

  16. James Duncan Oct 5, 2009 9:28 pm

    Two points about CC’s comments.

    One, I’m flattered by the comparison to Old Truth.

    Two, I’m curious how he’s so sure we’re Calvinists (as if there was something wrong with that). As far as I can tell, neither Downing nor I have ever quoted Calvin or appealed to him in our arguments.

    I’ll admit that I do sometimes quote Scripture and the Westminster Confession.

    If that makes me Calvinist, I’ll plead guilty every time.

  17. James Downing Oct 5, 2009 10:06 pm

    Arminians call me a Calvinist.
    Calvinists call me an Arminian.

    I’ve never once called myself either.

  18. Corner Coffee Oct 5, 2009 11:01 pm

    Sylvia,
    Am I to understand that I would be the first to attempt to right any wrong on this site? I highly doubt it. Retroactive correction seems to fall on deaf ears in the blogosphere anyway. Real time works much better.

    Paul,
    For the record, Benny Hinn could say “I’m not a charismatic pentecostal, I’m a Christian”. Equating your theology with Paul’s doesn’t make it so. It just means you believe it to be so. Let anyone else say that about their theology and you’d call them deceitful or delusional, I would guess.

    James Duncan,
    1. I don’t doubt it.
    2. It actually wasn’t that hard. It’s kind of like when you have company over and they smell the cats’ litter box. You don’t notice it because you’re always around it. But the rest of us smell it as soon as we walk in the door.

    And as if I needed more evidence, the defensiveness displayed here is just icing on the cake.

    James Downing,
    Well, whatever you are, wear it proudly. If it’s not worth fighting for, it’s not worth believing. Personally, I don’t care who you attack. But if you’re going to sling mud, expect to get a little dirty. It helps to be consistent (and correct).

  19. James Downing Oct 5, 2009 11:19 pm

    Coffee – I am neither. Both are complex belief structures that I find flawed on major points. I certainly have far more in common with the beliefs of Calvinism, but cannot with a clear conscious declre myself by that name.
    Secondly – Why don’t you try adding to the discussion? So far, you are long on arrogance, and short on insight.

  20. Sylvia Oct 5, 2009 11:32 pm

    Mr Coffee,
    Retroactive correction is a good idea for the reasons I’ve already stated. Firstly, the bloggers might correct their errors. If they fear God, and are truly in error, they might make amends. Secondly, people clearly read the comments on this blog. If your comments are attached to the erroneous texts, then there is a chance that people who are reading the archives will see them and get straightened out.
    Dude, please don’t give me room to doubt your motives. If error is entertainment to you, then why bother to condemn it? Otherwise, why not offer correction? I’m not married to this blog, and I’m not a Calvinist. I’m listening, now shoot.
    It may fall on deaf ears, but so what? Do we only speak the truth because it will be heard and appreciated? I don’t think so. Don’t we speak the truth to glorify the Lord, even when it is to our own peril?

  21. Corner Coffee Oct 5, 2009 11:57 pm

    James,
    I certainly agree with your first point.
    As to your second point: In due time things will certainly grab my attention. If I feel as if my words or input would be of any value, then I’ll chime in (as I did on your article about consumerism).

    FWIW, I personally don’t respond to questions of motive. I find it nearly impossible to prove a negative.

    Sylvia,
    Perhaps. It’s more of a time management issue, I suppose. What needs to be said will be said, and what doesn’t will not. And since most of the articles here are recycled ideas with new source material, I think you’ll find most of what I could say about articles past will just as easily be said in articles present and future.

    As to my motives, see my above comments to James. If you interpret my motives as corrupt, there’s really nothing I can do about that. I probably won’t lose sleep. But for the record, I don’t like to see any idea go unchallenged. It keeps us sharp. Call me the devil’s advocate, if it helps you understand my position any better.

    For that reason, I actually don’t bemoan the existence of this site, or others. A good criticism is a good criticism.

  22. JT Oct 6, 2009 12:11 am

    >>Corner Coffee: “I suppose when one borderline obsessive, Calvinist blog shuts down, another borderline obsessive — and surprise, surprise … Calvinist — blog is right there to pick up where the other left off.”

    Dear Mr. Coffee,

    I demand that you retract the above statement. There is nothing borderline about this blog’s obsessiveness.

  23. Corner Coffee Oct 6, 2009 12:13 am

    JT,
    I submit the largest word in the sidebar tag cloud as exhibit A 🙂

  24. Ben Oct 6, 2009 9:57 am

    Paul,

    Since the world already hates the church are you suggesting that the church just give up? Are we not commanded multiple times to tell the world about Jesus (even if they hate him)?

    I really didn’t see where Perry is implying that Newspring has it right. And that everyone else should do what they do. I understand the point I think you are trying to make but I just don’t see that implication. If Newspring thought they had it all figured out I don’t think they would be sending teams, seemingly weekly, to other churches all across the nation or going to conference after conference each year. The fact that “it is working” is a good thing, right? I agree that you can grow without bringing more people to Christ but can you bring more people to Christ without growth?

    You said: “It comes down once again to theology…Perry does not have a biblical understanding of the church. Because of this, his methods are unbiblical.” PLEASE explain this. With all due respect, do you mean that he doesn’t have a biblical understanding of the church or a worldly understanding of the church?

    YOu said: Perry’s logic runs…I am doing this, the church is growing, it is working, therefore God is in it.” I agree that you can temporarily grow a church even if God isn’t in it but how do you know He’s not?

    Yes, the mormon church is growing too. The sad reality is that the mormon cult does much more in spreading their beliefs than the christian church does. That’s my point in all of this and what I believe Perry’s point was too.

  25. JT Oct 6, 2009 12:37 pm

    Corner Coffee-

    Like I said, there is nothing “borderline” about this blog’s obsessiveness. It’s just straight-up obsessive.

  26. Corner Coffee Oct 6, 2009 12:52 pm

    JT,
    Indeed.

  27. Paul Oct 6, 2009 1:55 pm

    Ben,

    I’m pressed for time, so I have to focus on responding to one of your comments. Noble’s understanding of the church has two fundamentally fatal flaws i.e. unbiblical. (Again, these are not mine, but R.C. Sproul who has been most helpful in thinking through these issues.) 1. The natural man seeks Jesus. Because Noble has this assumption, it permeates much if not all he/Newspring does. Everything from singing Highway to Hell to his self-help sermons assume that if the church and himself are culturally relevant, shocking, and cool, etc, the unbeliever will (using his term) make a decision for Christ. The Scripture just don’ teach this. Romans 3 teaches that none seek God. They are in complete rebellion to him.

    2. The Church exists and is focused on the unbeliever in our midst. The problem is that the New Testament teaches that the church is for “believers”. We are to edify and ecounrage each other as we worship Jesus. We come together to go out so to speak. We do keep the unbeliever in mind in our preaching, hospitality, mercy, etc., but the primary focus is edifcation of the saints. Evangelism and missions is the fruit of tis edification and encouragment.

    Hope ths clarifies. Now, does this mean I doubt all the reports coming out of Newspring about conversions? No. Does this mean we should not be evangelistic…not at all. All I am saying is that if the Bible is truly God’s Word, and inerrant, sufficient and powerful…should we not obey it. God is gracious, and sometimes uses our poor attempts, but should we be happy there. Should we not strive for biblical theology, methods, and growth?

  28. James Duncan Oct 6, 2009 4:01 pm

    JT and CC,

    You confuse obsessiveness with focus.

    All good blogs are focussed. PP focuses on some of the public output of Noble and Furtick, with a few others thrown in from time to time for good measure.

    Judging by traffic, a lot of readers appreciate that focus. They could find all this stuff themselves, or they can save themselves a bunch of time by coming here first.

    One other thing–blogs are not people. The focus of a blog is not necessarily indicative of the interests or “obsessions” of the writer.

    If blogs matched personal obsessions, my early attempts at cricket blogging would have taken off and you’d all be screaming Howzat on Saturday afternoons.

  29. JT Oct 6, 2009 5:45 pm

    Duncan,

    I hope this doesn’t come across as a smart-alecky jab, but… focus would be actually listening to Noble’s sermons before criticizing his words, rather than obsessively assuming the worst possible meaning from what he blogs and tweets, and twisting his every word to paint him in the worst possible light.

  30. Micah Taylor Oct 7, 2009 2:36 am

    “It actually wasn’t that hard. It’s kind of like when you have company over and they smell the cats’ litter box. You don’t notice it because you’re always around it. But the rest of us smell it as soon as we walk in the door.”
    -Corner Coffee

    Look, those who object or differ from someone’s teaching are being compared to fecal matter again. That’s sermon material right there…

    This blog really isn’t healthy for me but I will have to say it gave me a good laugh tonight… it just reminds me of this guy in high school who always told everyone he had a car that was faster than theirs… but everyday he rode a bike to school.

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