Shut up, they explained
Posted: December 14th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Criticism, Critics, Newspring, Noble, Wilson | 70 Comments »I don’t know what kinds of questions Perry Noble is having to answer in his world, but if you survey the comments on this blog you’ll find a number of challenges to my position. While we await Noble’s explanation, I’ll offer this personal defense.
You deserve it.
It has been quite chilling to see this response in the comments, though it’s not surprising that some NS members interpret Noble’s statements and actions as endorsing this view. The comments tend to take the same shape as NewSpring’s statements–they do acknowedge that Maxwell went too far, but they’re not sorry that it happened to me.
This is the attitude that sustained Maxwell’s campaign and why so many NewSpring insiders didn’t see enough wrong with what he was doing to throw a flag on it. Sure, Maxwell may be bad, but Duncan is worse. He deserves what he gets.
NewSpring’s lack of curiosity about how badly I might have been harmed suggests that I deserved whatever I got. On October 30, I had emailed Jason Wilson, NewSpring’s executive pastor, to ask for a meeting with Noble to to tell them what had happened, and suggested that Noble’s reassurance to his congregation that they not worry about Maxwell’s actions told me that they really didn’t know what he had done. On October 31, Wilson sent this response:
If you feel that there are other situations that may cause us to “worry” that have not been addressed, please let me know via email.
Note the quotes around worry. His message was that they still weren’t worried. Would you send an email detailing the serious and profoundly personal complaints that I had to someone like this? Me, neither.
You started it.
This is an argument more suited to an elementary school playground, but, because it still appeals to some, I suppose I need to answer it. Here’s an example of that sentiment from the a comment from “Bob.”
By your own admission this whole series of events began two years when ‘you’ initiated your opinions and criticisms against NS. You took issue with a billboard sign and some of the youth activities at this church which offended your personal sensibilities. In response, you submitted an article to a local newspaper and started a blog campaign about this church. It was your prerogative to do so. From there it’s apparent that things snowballed, escalated, and got very ugly on both sides.
Has the thought ever occurred to you that if you had simply said nothing and not concerned yourselves with NS and its activities, then none of this would have happened to you, your family, or them?
If you really want to go back to the beginning of the beginning, it was when I and many other Andersonians were subjected to NewSpring’s very public and disheartening attack on parenthood on the main roads in our city. I attempted to talk to Noble about that by emailing a friend in the church, then, when there was no response, by communicating with him in the same public forum that he was using (he on the highways, me in the newspaper).
(An aside on meetings. If you happen to scan through some of the discussions on this blog, you’ll see that a common attempt to cut off debate is to lecture us on the need to communicate with Noble face to face. If you can’t say this to Perry’s face, the lecture goes, you shouldn’t say this in public, to which I respond that I have attempted to meet Perry to say these things to his face. May we forever put to rest the idea that Perry Noble will ever meet with a critic? If he won’t take a meeting with someone who is complaining of criminal harassment from his church’s staff, or won’t meet after he has found that claim to be correct, he will never meet anyone at any time for anything. As it is, the whole meeting thing works against me whatever way I present it. If I say there’s a wall around Noble that I can’t breach, I’m accused of not even trying and told to shut up. If I say I’ve taken a run at the wall and dashed myself against it, I’m accused of being a celebrity stalker who just wants Noble to pay attention to me, so I should go away and shut up.)
The key issue here is forum, not chronology. As much as Noble wants to characterize bloggers as jackasses, he’s a pretty big one (blogger, that is) himself. He uses his blog to daily lecture pastors around the world on how they can build a church like his and have a ministry like his. Noble is more often to be found talking to other leaders on his blog than his own flock, though he realizes they are reading too. This is a man who is using the Internet to redefine the church in a way that goes much beyond his own particular church.
An important part of Noble’s redefinition–he calls it reformation–effort is tearing down the traditional church. You don’t have to look far on his blog or listen long on a Sunday to see him besmirching the honor, motives or practices of other churches in the community. Pastors are commonly described as prostitutes, and churches as elitist country clubs that give the middle finger to their community. Church goers (not his own, of course) are characterized as religious bigots who don’t know Jesus.
So long as Noble never offers specifics about who he’s talking about in these moments (and he never does), these anti-church and anti-Christian rants stand against every other church and most believers.
This is why I’ve always imagined that Pajama Pages is playing defense. I am trying to argue for the beauty and integrity of the local church in general. If you search through these pages, you’ll see that I never identify my own church; I’m arguing for all churches, not just my own. I love denominations for their mission of preserving important truths and modes of worship, even though I don’t agree with them all. I love the different styles of worship and preaching that you’ll find in churches all over town, even though I wouldn’t personally enjoy or endorse all of them myself.
This is a bad witness.
The idea behind this objection is that people will be less likely to come to salvation if they see disputes in the church. We should keep our disagreements hidden. (For NSers who embrace this position, you’ll need to ask Noble why he wanted this on the front page of the paper.)
Disputes aren’t ideal, though they’re nothing we need to be ashamed of or try to hide. The New Testament epistles are full of public disputes including instances where Paul calls Peter out as a hypocrite, condemns a particular group of teachers, and reports on persecution at the hand of a specific person. Unless we’re prepared to hide the Bible from the world, we need to acknowledge that personal and theological disputes and debates have always been a part of the church and were so important and profitable that they’re part of Scripture.
But they don’t help us with evangelism, you say. It sounds like a good theory, but I’m more concerned with what God says about that. If you will, read through 2 Timothy 3 with me. In verse 11, Paul reminds Timothy of the persecutions and sufferings he has endured, often at the hands of other believers whom he refers to as evil impostors. (Shush, Paul, we’re not supposed to talk of such things.)
In the next sentence, Paul instructs Timothy on the value of Scripture.
From infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation though faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. (2 Timothy 3:15-16)
All Scripture includes the bits about nasty disagreements, which, according to God, can bring people to salvation. Paul doesn’t say, “All Scripture, except for the stuff that will make the unsaved folk wonder why we can’t get along, is God-breathed and useful.”
NewSpringers, if there’s a rule against disagreeing, what will you do when a flaming heretic comes into town and draws a crowd of 30,000 people? Will you say anything? If so, when would you start? If not, why wouldn’t you care? And, no, I’m not saying that Noble is a heretic, just that there are times when it’s important to speak up. You and I might have different triggers, but I hope that you do at least have a trigger.
There are some controversies that aren’t worth engaging, though the example of the church fathers shows us that there are times when public disputes are necessary and profitable.
You and your blog are full of hate.
Again, this is a complaint that is modeled by NewSpring’s leaders. Look at that Duffey-Maxwell conversation again, and you’ll see it. Duffey’s response to Perry Noble’s assistant, who wants to make me a “_____ dog on a chain,” is:
don’t read… he just hates on Pastor Furtick, @bcoop & @perrynoble… i’m in really good company!
I can be ignored and insulted because I hate. It’s also after this comment that Maxwell goes searching for his gangland beating posse.
Noble uses the idea that his critics are hateful to justify ignoring what they say.
If you are willing to ignore those who hate you then you can truly focus on THE ONE who loves you, called you and knows you!
The idea that I was a hater, clearly communicated by the church’s leadership, was likely what motivated Maxwell and friends to start their hateful campaign in the first place.
Not that hate is justification for any of this, but I am curious exactly how Noble and his supporters find hate in these pages. Surely the fact that I disagree with him is not hateful, for that would make him even more hateful than me (he publishes more “hateful” words that disagree with me to more people).
For those who find PP and me hateful, I invite you to scour these pages for examples of hate. Comments by others don’t count, and you can’t just say “all of it,” because it’s not all about Noble or NewSpring. The whole blog is fair game, but I’m especially interested in examples from before May 21, when Duffey was so sure I hated everyone.
The comments are open for you to show us what you find. Go for it.
UPDATE: After seven days and 70 comments, there is not one instance of someone pointing out anything hateful on this blog. For all the times I’ve been accused of hate and all the words that I’ve published on this blog, I would have thought someone would have come up with something.
The silent response is somewhat reminiscent of this other challenge I gave to Perry Noble’s fans.
Similar Posts:
- Naming critics (Updated)
- Noble’s Defense of Multi-site Churches
- It’s remarkable what passes as teaching in Noble-land
- Don’t take my word, take Noble’s: Reformation is coming
- How to work through complex problems in one easy step
Or, excuse me, you said, “I don’t have much more to say ..” but you keep rambling on. Christians do not do this sir, it makes me sad to see what our world has come too. NewSpring does great things for people, maybe not you, but for some people. You need to let all this “technology” stuff just STOP. Following everyones twitterss and blog? Its gotten to the point of insanity. I know your a nice man, a lot of my friends have had you as a professor and have gone on and on about how great of teacher you are. Wrong things were done to you, yes, and I am SO sorry about that. But its forgivness, its time to let go and find a new topic to rave about. All I know, is with out Newspring, my life would be very different, and it hurts to see christians fight against christians. Jesus did not want it like this. God Bless.
Good posts. In reading the comments of those who are either members are supporters of Newspring, they all basically say the same thing as you have described. It should comeas no surpise. Many times where I have listened to Noble’s rants, their is ample applause. The Scriptures teach us that many will sit under leadership that will tell them what they want to hear.
But, there is a larger picture here. I long to see a return to biblical fidelity. Newpsring is just one of many “relevant” churches that are, at the end of the day, man-centered. Yes, they say it is all for Jesus, but their practice says otherwise. Listening to their sermons (Schuller, Warren, Noble, Furtick, etc.), man is the center of the church, man is the center of salvation, man is the center of sanctification, worship and evangelism. Now, I understand that I said a whole bunch and contradictory things. I don’t have time to unpack all these thoughts. If anyone responds with specifics, i’ll try to respond in more detail.
Duncan, keep pressing on, and standing for biblical truth. Perhaps God will be gracious, grant repentance to Newspring, and many churches across America that are in the same shape.
I read your latest post where you accused PN of Tweeting about you and your playing the victim. Is this not the same tweet that you referenced when you stated he fired back at Gary Lamb on
November 2, 2009?
Gary Lamb unloaded on his former friends in a remarkable post on Saturday where he tells what he has learned in the “real world” the last few months. Some excepts:
I had some of the fakest friendships in the world. People I thought were my best friends I haven’t spoken to once since I had an affair.
One of his former best friends, Perry Noble, didn’t appreciate the attention, and fired back with a pointed tweet.
Hate to see people play the victim when the people they blew apart with their choices are actually the real victims!!!
[JD: You're right. I'd forgotten about that, so I've removed that reference from this post. Interesting sentiments, nevertheless.]
I don’t think you hate NS but I find it somewhat problematic that almost every post either assigns motives or interprets what PN “is actually saying”. That’s were the “I don’t hate them” gets a little gray.
Additionally I don’t understand how you can say “comments by others doesn’t count” for you hating NS yet you continually blame PN for the actions and comments of Maxwell?
For the record I don’t attend NS and I’m not particularly impressed with PN. I agree with much of what you say but I don’t exactly like the manner in which you say it.
” but I don’t exactly like the manner in which you say it.”
Chris, This is the title of PN’s blog today “This Sh_t Is Awesome!” and your getting on James’ case?
It still amazes me that Perry Noble hasn’t manned up and either apologized or called to say he isn’t wrong and why. When people worship a person and it is very evident that without PN I wonder where NS would be…makes me wonder just how much of a “cult” he has there. I sure wouldn’t want a pastor I couldn’t talk to and hides in the green room on service days and won’t defend his own church. I think there is alot of “ME” in there at NS.
Paul,
There is much in what you said. if we rewind bach about 2500 years, we will find a religeous system that had been carefully crafted to be hard, but doable, and required going through specific men to accomplish. many of the specific actions required giving up time or materials, and this system demonized any other alternatves systems. the most glaring deficiency in this system was pointed out by Christ when he said You look on the outside, but God looks at the heart.
we are seeing a lot of that old system again in some places. peolpe are changed or affected, poor are fed, trees planted, and fingers pointed but how many problems are being dealt with that need a crucified savior?
as for PN himself, he seems to play alot on the “badboy” rebelousness that we all find within our hearts. sadly, he does not tell us to submit that thing Romans 7 style, but to sort of celebrate our non submission. an intresting and apperantly somewhat successful tact, but if “scoreboard” was an accurate barometer of God’s blessing then the world of Islam has found great favor in the eyes of the Most High God.
we carry in us the foul sin nature that we were born with, and always seem to look for shortcuts and new ways to get where we want to be.
there is one way, one truth and one light, let us seek Him while He may be found, instead of racing around trying to find cool ways of making the peeple who hate God like us.
I do pity you.
From reading over your blog, it appears you have nothing more to do with your time than try to destroy Perry Noble and NewSpring. What about your wife and child? Do they not need your attention? What about your friends? What do they think about your tirade? What about your work? Have you given your students any attention whatsoever since you began this hate campaign? WHAT ABOUT SPREADING THE GOSPEL TO OTHERS WHO DON’T KNOW GOD??
God is not happy about what you are doing. I don’t see or hear NewSpring or Perry Noble spending their days and nights ranting and raving about you, and you are the one who started it when you began writing those articles against their billboard campaigns. Do you realize that if every single person began a campaign against every church or pastor they perceived as “bad,” all the Christians in the world would be fighting? I truly don’t believe this is what God would want for us to do. God wants us to love each other. You can’t win someone over by hitting them with a Bible, just as you can’t force someone or something to see what you feel is the error of their ways by launching a smear campaign against them or it. NS and PN are indeed taking the high road by not responding to your accusations. That would only make a much bigger mess than what you have already caused.
My family, friends and I will pray that God will lay it on your heart to let go of your anger. What happened to you and your wife is a tragedy. I have lost two children by miscarriage, and I know what you are going through. However, that doesn’t give you the right to blame someone for something in which they had no part. The best thing for you to do is stop this right now, gather together with your wife and child, get down on your knees, and pray to God to restore peace to you and your family. I fear if you don’t let this go, you will only continue to hurt yourself.
Ian, did you READ PN’s latest blog re: this sh_t is awesome? If so, you would see that it doesn’t come from him. He is quoting a little boy who visited their church and the boy’s his reaction when he saw the children’s area. He is only quoting, and he does get his point across quite well.
JD: I have seen this asked before, but do you have any proof whatsoever of the things you say were done to you? How can we know you are telling the truth? How can we know you aren’t exaggerating? If what you say is true, put the proof out there for all to see. I don’t know if you can scan documents and attach a link, but you need to somehow supply proof that what you are saying is the truth.
This whole experience has taught me something. I was a guy that enjoyed Perry Noble and he has helped me. I subscribe to his blog and actually have commented to him on his blog on before. When I was a youth minister a year back, I looked on and applauded a lot of Perry’s boldness. I took Perry’s boldness into my setting and burned a lot of bridges. I never questioned or not the problems and thought, “Way to be bold, Perry.” I never thought to attack a person but I did want to come to his aid. I wanted to do that more look at my own motives; it is easier.
At the same time of this Perry fandom, I was reading about Phil Johnson’s controversy with Mark Driscoll’s use of words. As an onlooker, I admired how the debate was handled and as such, it caused me to look at my motives as both sides actually look at my use of words in preaching and teaching. That was a completely different controversy that I think both sides took to heart for good of all. So debate of theological issues can be good if both parties respect the options and allow for the difference. There were no personal attacks in public. Heck, look how MD responds in video at http://bit.ly/W26C5 earlier this year.
I mention this because I know Driscoll has used the same language of Pajama wearing bloggers and here is a public example of responding well to one of those “bloggers”. Out of that, I was challenged by Phil and Mark’s response and I feel Christ was edified. Some conservative bloggers took MD to task for specifically repenting but he did do everything in his power to try and mend fences and was not unapproachable.
I didn’t know any of this was going on at Newspring by Perry’s blog. He mentioned the press release and my first response was “what psycho would go through all of this trouble and something seems to be missing because only a psycho would go that far over a theological issue.” This conjured images of Steven Anderson from Az who hasn’t exactly lived in a way to take himself seriously to an outside observer. So I just thought it was someone like this they were responding to thus giving them the benefit of the doubt.
A friend sent me the link to your site to hear your side. I was curious so I read what type of psycho this was. He’s college prof so he isn’t some nut job off the street. Okay, not what I expected but what axe does he have to grind? As I read your response, my presuppositions were challenged and realized I can see what would drive someone to these lengths, someone who was deeply wronged.
I don’t know what Newspring did or did not do. Your case is pretty strong with evidence. I’m also sure there are things and times you haven’t represented Newspring well. You are right that the response didn’t fit the crime. I know that Nehemiah didn’t come down to answer his pagan critics but Jesus did answer his pharisee critics. I know I have to be more discerning either way. Again, I’m just an onlooker from Ohio so what do I know.
It has taught me one thing as a leader. If you have an offering and know that someone has been wrong, go and settle the matter. So if someone is willing to come to me with a problem, I need to listen and respect. Even if it was someone under me, wasn’t it Jesus the one that took the responsibility for all of us under him for sinning against God so reconciliation could happen? Amazing how much leadership is found in the Cross.
A while back, I relistened to a sermon on Rahab from Perry to help me on an upcoming sermon on Judges 2 and I found his major point was Biblical but how he got there was from eisegesis, not exegesis. It missed on one of the bigger points of the Rahab text that the greatness of God is enough to call people to repentance. This just shows me Jesus is enough and no one person is bigger than that. Newspring should not be a functional savior and hopefully this situation will be used to show all that Jesus is enough for all of us.
Robin,
It’s not for you to decide what PN is supposed to do.
Meanwhile, we had four beautiful services filled with powerful worship and a biblically sound and compelling message delivered by Pastor Perry at NewSpring in Anderson yesterday in which over 75 people surrendered their lives to Christ, and this is without mentioning the Greenville, Columbia, and Florence campuses.
We’ll continue on with our vision and mission at NewSpring irrespective of the need for a bitter man to stretch out the drama to keep his life interesting. The errant actions of a few at our church is not a characteristic of the whole as Dr. Duncan would have you believe. Have you stopped to consider just how many people have died and crossed over into a fiery eternity during this time you are wasting in effort to perpetuate this nonsense?
I do not go to NS and have never been there for the record. I do like some of PN stuff not so much on other stuff, but isn’t that how it is with my pastors or teachers? Sometimes there is some great stuff sometime not as great. It seems to me that every thing you post is to provoke a response from whomever you are speaking against or criticize. That seems to be the theme of your blog. You cite him for doing the same things against other churches, but if you took the names of the blogs it looks like both sides are taking shots at people or organizations not like them. It seems like both sides has escalated the situations, and yet neither one is backing down. Seems like a game of chicken, and then you wonder how it got to this point. If NS did what you claim, which no one can no for sure except the parties involved, then yes they are very wrong and NO ONE deserves that, there has to be some culpability on the other side too.
Duncan, so, based on all of the evidence that you have presented on your blog, volunteers and a staff member at New Spring acted very inappropriately. I don’t think anyone would say otherwise. As a pastor, I understand just how busy ministry is, and for a lead pastor to be able to sit down with everyone (both critics and those who just want to pick his brain) is quite a stretch at a church that size. I understand that someone on staff did meet with you though.
This is not really what I want to suggest though. Because it will just continue the circular discussion that has been going on for some time now.
How about this…forgive the folks who wronged you, drug you through the mud, and everything else. You live the Gospel out and forgive them in a way that may seem crazy, but shows the love of Christ. Be the man that you want them to be. Gospel forgiveness does not require love and repentance in return. Gospel forgiveness and Gospel love forgives and loves even if it is never given back.
Post a blog that says, Hey, I was really wronged and sinned against, hurt. My family was wronged sinned against, and it hurt so much. But, I forgive because I was forgiven for so much and Christ loved me so much.
What do you think?
I’m not getting on his case. Let me be very clear “I don’t particularly like PN and I AGREE with much of what you say I just don’t like the manner in which you say it”.
Or to put it another way; I think PN is crass which I think is a very limiting factor to the gospel and sends a confusing message about what sanctification should be about. Furthermore I think, whether from his style or his decision, his message’s often seem to be non-substantive. But theological I don’t find much to wrangle about. He’s crass but I don’t find that to be anymore a sin (unwholesome talk) than an angry preacher, or a gossipy preacher, or an impatient preacher. Not a whole lot blogs about those guys though.
JDuncans manners is to scour a sermon, tweet, or blog to verbally eviscerate PN. Is he mean? No. But I find it just as unbecoming as a crass pastor.
I have a question for anyone at NS. If your beloved Perry Noble is above reproach and questioning and could never be wrong, then please explain to me why are youstill reading this blog and why are you still commenting. As I understand it, PN recently coached you all on how to not respond to critics. He said that you’re not supposed to read critic’s blogs, your not supposed to comment or respond to them. That little talk happened sometime back in October to the best of my knowledge. For any of you that happened to miss it, someone was nice enough to put it up on Youtube for us. Here’s the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX5Oo1Iz2Rw
So this begs the question, why are you disobeying your pastor if he is above reproach and question? I think it’s wonderful that you’re here and reading and commenting and hopefully being open-minded and looking at all the facts. However, if you want to maintain that PN couldn’t possibly be at fault in this situation then why do you show through your actions that he was wrong when he gave this very clear instruction for you and everyone else at Newspring to stay away from this blog and others like it? Again, I hope that you blatently disobey PN and do continue to learn and study and research other things and hopefully find the truth.
Well, this whole thing is truly sad. I’ve tried to follow it and offer my prayers for both sides. I’ve prayed for Dr. Duncan that the Lord would continue to comfort and strengthen him. I’ve also prayed for Perry Noble and all the leadership at Newspring, that the Lord would grant them repentance and forgiveness for their sins. None of us are perfect but this has just gone on too long. It’s like a bad movie where you’re literally embarrassed for the actors. It has gotten to the point where I am embarrassed for PN and NS. You would think that at this point PN would have at least offered some kind of genuine gesture of apology. This is a clear example of those taking the wide path as opposed to the narrow path and all in the name of “hundreds making decisions for Christ.” So sad to see this “missional” attitude that seems to negate the command to love one another. Dr. Duncan has clearly not been shown the love of Christ that PN and NS are supposed to be showing as the last time I checked they’re still calling themselves a Christian church.
And, for those of you that thinks that the end justifies the means, that is, that the amount of people being saved justifies the actions of the church, just remember that according to the latest statistics, 85-99% of those who “make a decision for Christ” in churches in America later backslide and fall away at some point to actually be turned off from church and never return. So, that means that of 75 people, if 7 of those people actually make it to their death beds as Christians then that is truly amazing and has nothing to do with a church, but with God. Let’s get a fact straight. Church DOES NOT save anyone. GOD SAVES and only God! He saves very specifically through the Gospel (Rom 1:16). If God will save people, He has all power and no need of Newspring to do it. With or without Newspring God can still save. People who think the amount of people being saved gives them an excuse to keep acting arrogantly and not repent of their sins do not understand the nature of God and their true place in the large perspective. If Newspring suddenly ceased to exist, somehow, someway, people would still be able to get saved.
Dear James,
I have read over basically this entire blog. I am astounded to say the least that the behaviour demonstrated by Perry Noble and his staff. My heart is saddened and sickened by not only what they have done, but the reaction of those who basically state that you are getting what you deserve. We are living in essentially a biblically illiterate society, who neither search scriptre, not have much need to rightfully divide the Word.
Instead, like the cultural, those who profess Christ, seemed more enamored with sensation, signs and wonders, and are fascinated with those who are teaching falsehoods, and heresies, and ridiculing anyone who dares bring the light of examination to their words, actions and leadership. But we are promised that in the end these will occur.
More often, many of these rockstars are riduculing and mocking institions, solid biblical exegesis, in exchange for an “entertainment”, and cultural relavitism at all costs to advance the Kingdom. Instead of disiciples, people who love the Truth, they rather have their itching ears tickled and love those who are merely crass agitators, and who then posture they are being persecuted.
This is a toxic mix, and we are only seeing the very beginnings of a great falling away in my opinion. No longer people wanting people who can clearly by the Spirit preach the Word, but our culture wants quick fixes, a palpable message that neither confronts our fascination with being liked and popluar with the culture. How else could one have the audacity to open an Easter service with the satanic filth of AC/DC, and not expect to be rebuked. Why? Because “we” don;t get it?!?! We don’t know that the culture is demanding we aquiesce to what unregenrate people want from the Body of Christ? Tolerance, entertainment, and what ever else this wicked genetation demands.
Unofrtuantley, between the New Apolstilic Movemenet, the Rick Joyner’s the Todd Bentleys, and the Emergent “stream”, one dare not touch thine anointed, less we are to fear their confrontation and rebuke. Not suprising, that some are resorting to the kind of sin and intimidation they demonstrated. With an army of “faithful” who basically regurgitate there particluar shibolleth, those who call for a demonstation of character defining qualification for leadership, who can rightly divide the Word, and call all men to repent are more and more finding “leaders” who are willing to sacrifice those above noted traits because THEY CAN.
LR:
You wrote: “All I know, is with out Newspring, my life would be very different”
Is there an echo on this blog? Aren’t you quoting JDuncan? I bet his life would be very different without NS, too.
Chris:
You wrote: “Additionally I don’t understand how you can say “comments by others doesn’t count” for you hating NS yet you continually blame PN for the actions and comments of Maxwell?”
This seems so obvious, but I suppose someone ought to clarify it for you. JDuncan asked for readers to scour his site for hate, excluding the comments. JDuncan is not responsible for the comments of his commentators. Why not? Because he can’t fire them (hint: that’s what happened to Maxwell).
Barb:
You wrote: “I do pity you.”
He doesn’t need pity. He needs an apology. I think this 4 word quote applies much more to NS leadership, who have to be second-guessing themselves about going public. They’re showing how uninformed and unprepared they are. They had no clue what happened to JDuncan.
You also wrote: “WHAT ABOUT SPREADING THE GOSPEL TO OTHERS WHO DON’T KNOW GOD??”
So, Barb. What about it? Stop reading the blog and posting. It looks like you have work to do.
I really don’t think telling the truth is a smear campaign. Telling the truth does not of require a lot of time, the words flow easily..I found..I’m sure Dr. Duncan is spending far less time in sharing truth then NS is trying to think of some way out of this mess. Its through the love of Christ we stand for truth. God is gracious and merciful to those who with humble hearts turn to Him in repentance, not those caught up in an emotionally frenzy.. you can’t scare people into heaven though the halls of hell nor rock them there though awesome concert or even a clever sermon. It comes to a moment in a persons life that they see there need for Jesus as Savior and truly give themselves over to Him and seek a deeper meaning to there lives than being entertained or frightened. You see the Christian life is one of service, in sharing the Gospel in your life, not just bringing people to church . Going to church did not save anyone. If everyone who attended NS this past Sunday would share there faith as a witness to the grace of God instead of just saying ” You got to come hear PN he’s great” then what would next Sunday look like for NS? Just think Thousands of missionaries hitting the streets of Anderson sharing the gospel “themselves” Making Jesus famous instead of a church or pastor…but alas they have never been taught how to share their faith….just their church..unofficially of course, that’s they way they roll it seems . just like it wasn’t official church persecution of Dr Duncan . From my point of view the problem would be solved for everyone if it was truly Jesus first at NS.. PN may preach it but staff and peeps reveal truth. NS will always have critics but they could make it a little harder for them.
On the surface, I agree with what Perry says. However, if you truly examine it, I think some truths come to light that show some ways of thinking that could be tightened up a bit. The numbers are quotes from Perry’s blog. The letters are my thoughts.
1. If you want to build a great church then go after the people that no one else wants! That’s what Jesus did…and because of that we are included in HIS Kingdom.
a. Jesus never built anything. I realize that on the surface, it seems that Perry is speaking metaphorically, but if you read further in the blog, I think he shows that he is speaking of truly “building” a church. Perry tells us consistently how to emulate Newspring, and I believe he starts this blog out by setting us up to be in “awe” of his church.
2. A first time visitor (probably around 9 or 10 years old) walked into our 4th-5th grade room in KidSpring at our Anderson campus and was BLOWN away!
He looked at the children’s worker who met him at the door, and, after looking around the room he said, “you guys have a wii?”
“Yep,” she said.
“And you guys have a PSIII?” he said!
“Yes sir, we sure do,” she replied.
“And we can play these for free?” He asked.
“Yep,” she answered.
Then he turned to his friend and said out loud, “This Sh_t is awesome!”
a. Note the references in this small passage to how awesome Newspring is. Here is what we learn about Newspring from this.
i. They have more than one campus
ii. The kid is “blown away” (Apparently at how “cool” the room is.
iii. Not only do they have a Wii, but they have a PSII. Therefore, they must have a lot of money in the church to have such things.
iv. They are so incredibly compassionate that they share and let people play their games for free.
b. Perry is a master of disguising the commercials for Newspring in stories such as this.
3. Now I am quite sure that makes some of you very uncomfortable; after all, you don’t want the cussing kids coming into church and messing up your perfect child.
a. He knows that he is not addressing the Newspring people here. He is taking a deliberate shot at the traditional churches who he thinks would be “appalled” at such behavior by a child. This is a terribly condescending statement.
b. Notice that he also works in once more, the assumption that he has the ability to make us uncomfortable. He thinks that “stepping on toes” is a movement of the Holy Spirit. While God does indeed make us uncomfortable, He never wants us to operate out of a sense of guilt.
4. However…after hearing this story from one of our children’s staff I was INCREDIBLY pumped up because I thought, “THAT is why we do church!”
a. I have to take a huge exception to Perry here. That is not why we do church. We do church to bring glory to God. That is what church is about. The wonderful offshoot of “doing church” is that we bring more people in when we do what we do to glorify God.
b. God is glorified when we treat people with value, but treating people with value is not why we “do church”.
5. I know many churches would not want a kid like that…but we do because HE MATTERS TO JESUS…even though his behavior is not perfect!
a. Again, Newspring is good, other churches are bad.
6. Here is what I know about that kid…
He was greeted by children’s workers that made it a point to learn his name.
He was treated like he was special, not like an outcast.
He was NOT taken to the bathroom where his mouth was washed out with soap; in fact, he wasn’t even rebuked. (Why in the world does the church expect those who do not know Christ to act as if they do? It is the most ridiculous/stupid idea!!!)
He was placed into an environment where he was taught the Scriptures.
He was placed into an environment where he was taught about Jesus.
He was placed into an environment where people went the extra mile to make sure the presentation was on his level.
He matters to God; therefore, he matters to us…and we are going to continually do all that we can to reach him.
i. This is the best part of the blog. I agree with everything here except I think someone should have taught (not rebuked) the child that sh-t is not an appropriate word in church or anywhere else.
7. Church is not a place for “perfect people.” (And BEWARE of the church where you go and EVERYONE seems perfect!!!) It’s a place where the broken, the lonely, the addicted, and the struggling can go.
a. Amen. However, shouldn’t the church also welcome in those who think they are perfect also? They need Jesus too. Read Luke 7:36. Jesus also hung out with the Pharisees.
8. I love the fact that this kid came to our church…didn’t pretend to be someone he was not…and was STILL accepted and heard about Jesus
a. Again, we get that Newspring is the church we should emulate.
9. And for those who look down on those who are “not as good as you,” remember that you were once like them (see I Corinthians 6:9-11 and Ephesians 2:1-5)…and were it not for God’s AMAZING grace…you would STILL be lost.
a. This statement smacks a bit of Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
b. We read the above passage and say to ourselves, “God I think you that I am not like that Pharisee.” Isn’t that the same sin that Jesus was speaking to them about? Think about it.
10. People who cuss should be welcome at church…So should those who smell like smoke…So should those who smell like alcohol…So should those who do whatever sin you do not do…When we get into the business of placing stipulations as to who can and cannot come to a service based on a morality code (OR a dress code) we have COMPLETELY lost sight of why Jesus came and died on a cross.
Like I said, hearing the story of that kid made my day!!! It’s why we do what we do…and it is my prayer that he eventually receives Christ, fixes his eyes on Jesus…and grows up to do AMAZING things in HIS name…all because there was a church that allowed him to come in as he was…and then begged God to not let him stay that way but rather to bring about the change HE desired in HIS time.
a. The first part of this is completely correct. We cannot place stipulations on who can come to the cross or to church.
b. The last part of this is also good. It is the “It’s why we do what we do…” Part that hangs me up. (See #4)
c. I also think it is laughable that Perry speaks so condescendingly to those of us who are not at Newspring about making judgments about others based on appearance or behavior, when he makes a pretty powerful judgment call that the kid is unsaved because he cursed in church.
Please do not take this the wrong way. I think it is awesome that a kid like that is being embraced by people working in the Kingdom of God. Maybe Perry can give us an update on how the kid moves through the discipleship process and maybe accepts Christ one day. I’d love to hear that story!
Why in our day and age do the ends justify the means? I am appalled at teh theology, methods, and character of churches and their apstors who think anything is justifiable as long as people are “surrendering their lves to Christ.” We as believers will have to answer to God when our methods of church/evangelism are contrary to God’s Word. He is the one that produced the salvation in a soul, not us. He has also decreed how we are to go about His work in this life. He has decreed the ends and the means. I think it is an amazing testament to God’s grace that he is saving people in churches like Newspring when it is abundantly clear in light of Scripture that their theology, methods, and even pastors are unbiblical in many ways.
Perry Noble and his ilk at NS and other similar churches are like eating fat free redi whip. You get full and it even tastes sweet… but there is no health value to it whatsoever and it eventually makes you sick…
SLW:
One thing that I have noticed in all PNs sermons, blogs, and many of his tweets is that he constantly exegetes Perry Nobhle and Newspring. If we can glean one thing from Noble, it’s that NewSpring is plippin’ awesome! (Or would that be BAMF?)
and i n response to Perry’s tweet…should we as the church have a playstation to draw children to our church? any thoughts?
It doesn’t make me uncomfortable when a kid curses in church, what makes me uncomfortable is when the sermon I’m listening to is full of them. Just saying.
SLW,
Really appreciated your careful critique of PN’s blog. Interesting that PN assumes himself that if the kid cusses in church then the kid isn’t a Christian. Does cussing in church make you a non-Christian? hmmmm, What’s okay for the gander isn’t okay for the goslings?
We have the same games (PS3, Wii) in the children’s ministries at our church and we are NOT a “rich church” and have between 150-200 attenders currently.
You don’t have to be rich to prioritize ministry to children and put things in the budget that will draw them in. Big misconception there. Lots of stereotyping going on here.
From a bewildered spectator in this wilderness -
Reading some of these comments make me feel like I fell thru’ the looking glass.
–Victim should apologize to the offender
–The offender should never apologize to the victim or even call him by name, lest it humanize him.-
–Never criticize the methods of our church but it’s ok to ridicule other churches (probably because they’re older and smaller and less exciting–what’s wrong with those people?).
–Heaven forbid that other pastors who have had more formal training and education might actually know more about the Bible and scripture than Perry, since he so often likes to ridicule them.
–And why would some people, not all, prefer a small church with traditional service when they could be entertained by a sometimes funny, sometimes crass, showman? I am sure Perry is sincere and does good work, but he’s not infallible and is very thin skinned.(Never questions the motives of the wizard!!!)
–Always tell your congregation to “Man Up” but when your time comes be sure to call your lawyer to do your talking.
–Maybe the victim could donate to the offender. I hear he’s been dropping hints for a motorcycle.
–
–
My heart goes out to your family!! I have met y’all before. Thanks for bringing light to the hearts of the leadership at NS. I wish you had a Facebook page.
SLW,
I enjoyed your post, specifically the points following 3 and 4. I think those two points sum up why I’m continually rubbed the wrong way by PN. It’s really amazing how many subconscious level thoughts he conveys in his messages and blogs. Those same ideas are what have us commenting on this blog. The ideas about how the bloggers and the critics are the enemy and Christians should fight them. A strong Christian with a solid foundation can see through that mess and get something good out of it, but someone with a lot of weakness in their faith can easily be confused and misinterpret the teachings of a preacher. Especially a highly influential one.
Anyway, I’m just glad to see that there are some critical minds on here. There are almost enough to outweigh the posts that could be summed up as, “NS is right, so you leave them alone! You deserved it! You’re dumb and PN is smart! I don’t want you to destroy my church because I’m nothing without it! It tells me how awesome I must be because of how fancy and well-funded it is!”
Almost. Just almost.
Peace,
Jay
Barb, I have a few problems with your passionate comment,
“From reading over your blog, it appears you have nothing more to do with your time than try to destroy Perry Noble and NewSpring.”
Although JD mentioned this in the above blog but I don’t mind restating it here in my own words. Really if you think about it, all of us have had enough time on our hands to read this blog in the first place and make a rather lengthy and well thought out comment in reply. Honestly, the argument of having too much time is really invalid especially if we leave it in a comment on said blog.
“I truly don’t believe this is what God would want for us to do. God wants us to love each other. You can’t win someone over by hitting them with a Bible, just as you can’t force someone or something to see what you feel is the error of their ways by launching a smear campaign against them or it.”
this argument would have been much strong with an example of a PP blog in which it is a blantant smear campaign. Perhaps your are a bit fervent in your comment, but smear campaign I believe is what has been done against JD more so. (i.e. setting up a fake twitter account, calling bloggers jackasses). Also, rather than hitting them with a Bible, then by what better means can we show the leaders of our churches the error of their ways? And exactly who are we trying to win?
“I have seen this asked before, but do you have any proof whatsoever of the things you say were done to you? How can we know you are telling the truth? How can we know you aren’t exaggerating? If what you say is true, put the proof out there for all to see. I don’t know if you can scan documents and attach a link, but you need to somehow supply proof that what you are saying is the truth.”
here’s the link. http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3780
My thoughts and prayers are with Dr. Duncan and his family.
As a former 3-year member of NS, I know first hand how difficult it can be to acknowledge that anything is ever wrong there. My prayer for the staff, members, and attenders at NS is that you would ask God to open your eyes to how He sees NS. That’s what I did, and that’s why I’m now at a different church.
I needed to learn how to share my faith with others. Can you imagine finding out a friend has been given 2 months to live and saying, “Well then you need to come to NewSpring right away”? I wanted to learn how to lead others to Christ myself, and that’s what a solid Biblically based church will teach you. You can’t just show (or tell) others about the evidence of your changed life. There are athiests, Mormons, and Muslims with changed lives, so that cannot be evidence of salvation. We need to know how to share the gospel message, because that is the ONLY thing that has the power to save.
I pray that God would bless the leaders and people at NS so that they would have their eyes fixed on Him alone and not the cultural, worldly signs of success. After all, during His ministry, Jesus didn’t have a place to lay his head, and I’m pretty sure He was doing everything right. So obviously success isn’t the measure of faithfulness.
Casey
I submit to everyone the following passage from 2 Timothy:
2 Ti 3:1-5 (ESV)
1 But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. 2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, 4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people.
As my high school English teacher would require from us, “Compare and contrast . . .” If you look at this passage and consider the history of what Paul is writing against, you’d see a even clearer comparison between what he is condemning and what we now have here in front of us.
If someone doesn’t make the grade, the instruction is very clear and strong: get away from them. Far away. Immediately.
I encourage . . . no, I DARE anyone to objectively use this passage as a checklist for both NewSpring/PN and Dr. Duncan. Be like the Bereans, get “deep” and carefully consider the evidence presented.
>>Brandon Hanson- “I have a question for anyone at NS. If your beloved Perry Noble is above reproach and questioning and could never be wrong, then please explain to me why are youstill reading this blog and why are you still commenting. As I understand it, PN recently coached you all on how to not respond to critics.”<<
Whoever said Perry Noble is above questioning and could never be wrong?
Ron-
Way to call out the Apostalic Movement, Joyner, and (did you really go there?) Bentley. Yes.
The evangelical church is in grave danger- and the seemingly righteous goal of social reform (aside from sound doctrine which just divides and confuses people anyway, right?) could be the catalyst that causes millions of church goes to fall right in line when we should be preparing to lay down our lives.
Brandon- yeah, but. Careful you don’t drive his points home in the way you phrase your position.
This is especially for those who love NS. Seriously.
Since NS was convinced that JDuncan was wrong (to contact them, to meet with them, to ask for compensation, to blog about them, to wear pajamas, to breathe air, etc), then why didn’t they act accordingly?
If he was sinning in his blog by critiquing Pastor Perry and NS, then they could have met with him. In fact, it seems like they really owed it to him to meet with him, and I’m not convinced that their attorney counts as an appropriate middle man for this step. This would be really simple, you know, since Matthew 18 covers it quite well.
In other words: If what JDuncan was doing was so wrong, why didn’t NS treat him as a fellow believer and go through the steps of Matthew 18? They had two weeks, but instead ignored Matt 18 by deciding to go public (the press release mentions no steps to avoid public disclosure). They surely knew what church JDuncan goes to (he keeps mentioning his students who intern there. They even could have just asked him: JDuncan – what church do you attend? We’d like to meet with you and any minister you nominate from your church. Really? No one knows where he goes? Maxwell knew his address, his family memebers’ names, backyard toys, car info, place of employment, but no church info? Please).
And since they knew his place of worship – or could have easily discovered it, why didn’t they call his pastor and request that his pastor intervene? If JDuncan was so blatantly wrong, then why not try to correct the awful behavior – by using Christian charity and intervention? Doesn’t he deserve that?
I’ve come up with five possible answers.
They didn’t think what he was doing was wrong. (Not likely by the tone of Pastor Perry’s rants against jackass bloggers)
They didn’t believe they needed to follow Matthew 18. (perhaps – after all he’s just a jackass blogger)
They’ve never read Matthew 18. (perhaps – it’s not very edgy. Or maybe they just misread it)
Perry had a vision NOT to meet with JDuncan and that gave him the authority to bypass Matt 18. (plausible)
They didn’t consider JDuncan as a fellow Christian, a part of the body of Christ – the church universal, so the passage doesn’t apply. (likely)
NS leadership, members, tithers, security personnel, band members, volunteers, visitors — which is it? JDuncan followed Matt 18, but NS didn’t. Why, why, why? You ought to demand answers from the people who make decisions.
When a church refuses to follow Scripture when making such a big decision, it creates the perfect opportunity for a blog to begin.
NS may have “awesome sh!t” (a middle schooler’s interpretation of a BAMF church), but they should skip the next trip to Best Buy for the newest Wii game and instead read Matt 18, and reverse course.
Press the undo button. Hit reset. Start a new game, beginning with meeting with JDuncan. Issue a public apology and publicly request a meeting to resolve this. Then they can get back to gaming.
Barb: Perry Noble and New Spring are NOT going to be “destroyed” via a blog. JD and the rest realize this. The goal is not to destroy them, but to expose them, to compare what they teach to the word of God, to call thm to repentance.
Gary Lamb and Perry Noble are two peas in a pod. They never think they are doing any wrong. The only people they think are doing wrong is the people who disagree with them and their approach.
Gary Lamb was having sex his assistant until the day he got caught. He now tries to claim that he just fell into sin and all should be forgiven. Problem is that he is still married and still with the girl. He likes to call anyone who disagrees with him about his situation a hater.
Perry does the same. He allowed people to harass Duncan. Now that he has been caught letting that happen he just calls people haters and Jackasses.
I call on both these men to stand up and grow a pair and become real men and leaders for Christ and not just sales men for the the local church business.
QUOTE: “The goal is not to destroy them, but to expose them, to compare what they teach to the word of God, to call thm to repentance.”
Lucas, who appointed you to this role?
Christina,
I ask again: where is the proof? I went to your link, which I had already read, and I still do not see any police reports, telephone records, internet records, anything official to prove that what JD says was done to him was actually done to him to prove that all this really did happen. Is it too much to ask that JD make those reports available? Am I missing something??
Lucas, is that what you call it? Exposing them? Calling them to repentance? And it’s not just JD’s blog; he writes columns in newspapers, has contacted the police, and from what I understand, speaks out against PN and NS to anyone and everyone who will listen. I would call that destruction. I would call that a vendetta. I would call that seeking revenge. It seems PN and NS are doing something right; otherwise, why would there be thousands of attenders and members?
Marc
“The errant actions of a few at our church is not a characteristic of the whole as Dr. Duncan would have you believe.”
JD
“my complaint is not with you [students] or the many other people who also attend. It is strictly with a set of staffers and insiders who seem to have lost their senses in dealing with me and my family”
I think there is a big misconception here. From the beginning this blog has been critical of the leadership style of Perry Noble. You have room for your defense there, however, we are now dealing with something that has spiraled out of control. Someone deserves an apology and we all want to see reconciliation. Reconciliation requires communication not silence for JD and most certainly not silence from PN.
Barb:
Respectfully, there are millions of members scattered through out the traditionalist churches that NS claims is doing everything wrong.
Not a logical argument.
Also, you can’t just pull up a link to see documents of an official investigation- be it phone records or police reports. You have to have access to a case number to see even the most minor of official records.
For very practical reasons, the general public has no access to any document that would include an arrest report or any other document that lists a victim’s name, address, or telephone number. As a result there is no links Dr. Duncan can provide that he has not already provided- which most people can agree is at least sufficient evidence enough for NS to have taken the initiative to hire a lawyer.
Additionally, I’m sure that the NS staff would have settled this question months before hiring an attorney.
Barb,
I doubt that this will convince you but I had my doubts on something that JDuncan (who I don’t know) posted here so I checked it myself, made a phone call, and it was true.
you said, “It seems PN and NS are doing something right”
Of course they are, so why is it so hard to stomach when they get something wrong? instead of moaning and groaning what you read here I would spend my energy taking what you read here and present it to PN. Just a thought.
Barb
You wrote: “It seems PN and NS are doing something right; otherwise, why would there be thousands of attenders and members?”
Islam is very popular right now, too in some parts of the world. Mormonism is also on the rise. How does one equate growth with “doing something right”?
Also, please read my post from earlier today (11:08am) and reply. Until then, I’ll skip your posts.
Put down the kool-aid.
“It seems PN and NS are doing something right; otherwise, why would there be thousands of attenders and members?”
The same reason there are thousands of attenders at college football games, concerts, movie theaters, etc? “Doing something right” is quite vague — all of those venues are “doing something right.’ We need to define what it is we want them to do right: Entertain people, sing songs, talk about Jesus, make lifelong obedient disciples of Jesus Christ? If we measure the success of a church by the number of people sitting in the pews, we’ve ignored most of what Christianity is about.
I agree that what happened between the staff members of my church (Yes, I go and serve there. No, I do not blindly agree with everything that happens) and Professor Duncan (who is a professor at the university I attend) was very regrettable. No, I in NO way believe it was deserved or Prof. Duncan’s fault. I do think that Prof. Duncan has had something against New Spring for a very long time. (Another thing, if we are all so concerned with semantics, the name is two words, not Newspring) And I think that both parties have not handled this well. Professor Duncan, you said on the last blog that you did not have anything more to say about it, yet that is clearly not the case.
I am confused as to who you blame. In one case you say that you do not blame Perry Noble for what happened, yet in some of the next statements you refer to the actions of “Perry Noble and his staff”. He was either included, or he wasn’t.
However, it is a logical fallacy [of composition] to assume that because of the characteristics of three or four members that ALL of New Spring is corrupt. That is insulting to every legitimate Christ follower there, and I consider myself to be that. I don’t agree with everything that Perry Noble does but I do agree with the vision of the church, to reach people for Jesus, and I believe that happens, and that people are reached for Jesus. And along with the fallacy of composition, it is wrong for me to hear one thing that I do not like somewhere and completely shut off everything else that is said.
I do think, Professor Duncan, that if you don’t want your blog to be considered full of hate, that you call out some of the commenters that follow you. If it is our responsibility to call out those underneath us of sin or hatred in their lives, I believe that leaves it up to you to let some of your followers (for lack of a better word, the people who read your blog everyday and comment) to not say things that are hateful, because there are hateful things said.
I will let you know this. When I heard about what had happened through the press release, it was the first time that I heard of anything and I am very involved. So no, not everyone at that church knew what was happening. I also assumed it was you from the beginning before I found your blog, because I knew that you don’t really like New Spring, for your own reasons, and I respect that. I didn’t know everything that happened, and I do believe that you were wronged. I apologize for the actions of people I attend church with. I don’t think that will be good enough for you though.
I want to ask a serious question: While I recognize the difference between believers seeking forgiveness of other believers are we not as followers of Christ to forgive whether it’s asked for or not?
I think of the verses that state:
“Forgive as you’ve been forgiven”
“Bless those who curse you”
“pray for your enemies”
“consider it all joy when you suffer trials”
@Barb: I was talking to a person the other day who said he was a dead man. Obviously he wasn’t but he didn’t believed me. So I showed him medical evidence that all dead men don’t bleed. I took his hand, cut him and he bled. I thought case closed. He told me, “Wow, I found something that medical science is wrong about; dead men can bleed.” (Story adopted from a Tim Keller sermon). Even if there were proof, would you actually see it for what it is? We all have bias. As Dr Greg House likes to say, if you go to Cancer doc to ask him what is wrong, it is almost always cancer.
That’s why a lot of the time we need to always check our heart and make sure we aren’t standing on the wrong things. If NS has done that and feel like it can stand before God give an account for their actions without fear, than as Gamaliel says in Acts, mere men won’t be able to tear it down. If PN is right, then why worry about these questions? Blessed are the persecuted, right? Peter and John couldn’t help talk about what they have seen even while being persecuted. If JD and PP is wrong, God will deal with them. If you feel NS is being persecuted, you don’t have fight for him. You can turn the other cheek.
Some here are worried because they don’t see a humble posture in the actions of Leadership at NS. Some here are worried that they are throwing the Baby out with the bathwater. That in their passion for “new” Church, they are being influenced by things not tethered in Scripture and causing damage to the entire body. Like a swollen appendix can influence the entire body, so to can one big name influence the Church for good or evil. They could be acting like Gnositcs in the First Century who were so caught up in Greek Philosophy that it negatively influenced the Church for many years. Or the dualism that influence Augustine/Catholics to down play sex/marriage. Or how much Jeffersonian Democracy might have negatively influenced the Church in the USA. How slavery influence views of the Bible? Should I go on?
We have examples of well meaning men and women allowing the current culture influence the timeless truth for the last 2000 years. Some produced good changes some didn’t. So these men and women are trying out of love to help because what NS is doing could be hurting THE church and thus their church.
The Bible says shepherd your flock well that God has given to you. Some, like NS, have a big flock and some, like my church currently, do not. All we can hope for is God honoring churches. As brothers, we should call one another back to scripture to see if we are being dogmatic about one style of Church. They are just are dogmatic as some of the churches they criticize. Could that be doing more harm to the Body of Christ than it is helping? Is not that what the Elder brother did to the younger brother in the Luke 15? “Look at how much better I am than you because I did ____.”
We are all guilty of style worship and all churches are contemporary to some time. PN and NS are right to call out Old Churches if they see their methods being influenced more by the 1950s than the Bible but doing so in a loving, constructive way (and the reverse is true if other see NS methods being influenced too much by 2009). We just can’t let our bias influence us to say modern church better than traditional church because that is a false dichotomy. It is either God Honoring and humble or Man Honoring and Proud.
As an aside: I do wonder though why NS gets down on smaller churches and come just short of saying they are filled with non Christians. If that is the case, doesn’t someone need to go in there and preach the Gospel too? If God can redeem and restore us, enemies of God, why can’t he do it to churches that are enemies of God? Wouldn’t it be more productive to encourage Gospel centeredness in them rather than rail against them (same is true for small churches sniping at Large churches)? That would be like me bragging about my wife to everyone and saying your wife is ugly because it is not my wife. If go to great lengths to show why every other wife is a dog compared to my super special wife, would that encourage you to talk to me or alienate you from me? NS may think they are right in truth but they could be acting relationally wrong in this matter in the same way a husband brags on his wife at the determent to all other wives.
Duncan, so, based on all of the evidence that you have presented on your blog, volunteers and a staff member at New Spring acted very inappropriately. I don’t think anyone would say otherwise. As a pastor, I understand just how busy ministry is, and for a lead pastor to be able to sit down with everyone (both critics and those who just want to pick his brain) is quite a stretch at a church that size. I understand that someone on staff did meet with you though.
This is not really what I want to suggest though. Because it will just continue the circular discussion that has been going on for some time now.
How about this…forgive the folks who wronged you, drug you through the mud, and everything else. You live the Gospel out and forgive them in a way that may seem crazy, but shows the love of Christ. Be the man that you want them to be. Gospel forgiveness does not require love and repentance in return. Gospel forgiveness and Gospel love forgives and loves even if it is never given back.
Post a blog that says, Hey, I was really wronged and sinned against, hurt. My family was wronged sinned against, and it hurt so much. But, I forgive because I was forgiven for so much and Christ loved me so much.
What do you think?
(I am in no way associated with New Spring or Duncan)
Chris
I like the way you think. Yes, it is absolutely necessary that NS forgive JDuncan for whatever sin(s) they accuse him of or think he’s guilty of.
I wish they had thought of this before going public, instead of meeting him and forgiving him in private. See my post from 11:08am today. It appears that we agree that NS should have been more thoughtful during this process.
Marc wrote; Meanwhile, we had four beautiful services filled with powerful worship and a biblically sound and compelling message delivered by Pastor Perry at NewSpring in Anderson yesterday in which over 75 people surrendered their lives to Christ, and this is without mentioning the Greenville, Columbia, and Florence campuses.
that is awesome, we better start a new building right away.
that is almost 4000 people per year in that building alone, if we only average 50% of that then we will have 2000 new members each year.
or did you mean over 75 people a) raised their hands, b) walked forward, or C) repeated words?
if so, then the next step will be discipling and teaching so that these people will be qualified to test themselves and see if they truly are in the faith (2 Corinthians style) and not just deceived by self or otherwise virgins with no oil or servants who will bear no fruit, right?
and we are desperately seeking to show them what holding our sinful bodies subject daily looks like, beginning with leadership, so that these little children will not be stumbled, requiring millstones and such, right?
and all of this is being done in the sincere belief that everything good in the building is there because of the grace of God, and every bad thing is because we are prideful selfish beasts. so we are living and teaching that we must decrease so that Christ can increase, and all for the Glory of God alone, right?
well, thank goodness for that.
LH,
I’m going to be as gentle as possible, because I feel that you are very adamant about your church. There’s nothing wrong with being a strong supporter, but I feel that in your unfounded accusations and overly emotional statements, you may be crossing some lines. I would like to help redraw those lines in order for you to make a better judgement about this whole situation.
LH: “Or, excuse me, you said, “I don’t have much more to say ..” but you keep rambling on. Christians do not do this sir, it makes me sad to see what our world has come too. NewSpring does great things for people, maybe not you, but for some people. You need to let all this “technology” stuff just STOP. Following everyones twitterss and blog? Its gotten to the point of insanity. I know your a nice man, a lot of my friends have had you as a professor and have gone on and on about how great of teacher you are. Wrong things were done to you, yes, and I am SO sorry about that. But its forgivness, its time to let go and find a new topic to rave about. All I know, is with out Newspring, my life would be very different, and it hurts to see christians fight against christians. Jesus did not want it like this. God Bless.”
1. “Christians do not do this”? Then, what are you doing posting on here? Is it okay because you posted just one comment? You’ve obviously been reading a lot if nothing else. I can tell this by your referencing of other posts. Furthermore, how do you back up your statement about what Christians can and cannot do. I’d like to see a Bible passage that says you can’t voice your complaints. This goes out to anyone out there. Give me at least one Bible verse, please. I don’t think it can be done, but if you need someone to help you pull something out of context, read PN’s blog.
2. Tell us, LH, what has our world come to? Have you not read your Bible? Disagreements have been around for a long time. I think to believe that our world is so different is a bit vain and overly dramatic. Granted, inflation rates are insane these days, but that’s a whole different topic.
3. Nobody said Newspring doesn’t do great things, but frankly, why do you people have to say that Newspring is doing these great things? I thought God did great things. You know, because generally, Christians should give God the glory. Not a building or a flawed human. Just a thought.
4. If you don’t believe in “all this “technology” stuff,” then once again, why are you here? Why are you reading his blog? I would just about bet you read PN’s, too. And, if you have a Twitter account, I would also wager that you are like most of my friends that attend NS. You follow Perry, Brad Cooper, Lee McD, and the rest of the gang. Am I right? You don’t have to answer that, I understand.
5. Would you be so forgiving of Dr. Duncan if he had wronged one of your fearless, lawyer calling leaders? Why don’t you reread and see where he forgave them even after the low blows dealt on Twitter regarding the failed adoption. I’m still not over that, and it didn’t even happen to me. Dr. Duncan has shown incredible patience through all of this. I am amazed. Had it been me, I can’t promise I wouldn’t have gone looking for those punks and went straight to see PN the minute in involved my family. If you don’t think this man is patient and forgiving, you’re out of your mind, and not in the cool way that PN thinks he invented or something. Dr. Duncan’s life would be very different without NS too, and so would mine. That is the reoccurring vague statement I hear from all of you. My life would be different without television. It’d be different without a car. Who cares? Not me. Get over it.
6. Again, tell me what Jesus says about all of this? One second, PN teaches you all that Jesus is like Rambo, and he’s going to make heads roll one day. The next (I guess when it fits the situation), Jesus would forgive completely and not hold people responsible for their shortcomings. This is pure madness.
Jesus would forgive, just as Dr. Duncan has done, but I don’t think Jesus would be satisfied with the actions of Perry or NS. So far, all they have to show for it is that they fired someone. Big whoop. Where’s the apology? Where’s their forgiveness? Where’s their action to make things right?
You really think Jesus is happy with the way Newspring handled this situation? Think again. And, think before you post.
Peace,
Jay
Excuse me, I was wrong, the name technically is one word, NewSpring. So I will correct myself before anyone else does.
I wish that Professor Duncan would post about something else because I did enjoy the posts that have to do with his opinions on baptism and the such.. I would really enjoy his salvation story since i will soon be a student at his university, and would like to know him outside of this whole situation.
Again, I am truly sorry for everything that has gone on between the professor and NewSpring. Both sides of the situation were handled not so well, if you ask me. But then again, no one has. So that’s my two cents.
Bob writes:
QUOTE: “The goal is not to destroy them, but to expose them, to compare what they teach to the word of God, to call thm to repentance.”
Lucas, who appointed you to this role?
Bob, all Christians are to discern false teaching (and teachers) rebuke, reprove, reject heretics and false doctrines.
@ Olivia
“If it is our responsibility to call out those underneath us of sin or hatred in their lives, I believe that leaves it up to you to let some of your followers (for lack of a better word, the people who read your blog everyday and comment) to not say things that are hateful, because there are hateful things said.”
Well firstly, I hope this doesn’t come across as hateful but, JD is not my pastor and I’m under no authority to him to, atleast not until next semester. This is a blog not a church. I really don’t think you can compare the two situations. JD has no biblical precedence to call out hate in a blog (he can filter what goes on here however). With your logic however PN is needing to take responsibility for the actions of his followers, (and the ones underneath him who have said hateful things) the ones who attend his church and step up on their behalf. Lay down some pride for a bit and simply have a meeting with JD.
@ Barb,
I’m sorry that was rather sarcastic of me to post a link to JD’s blog. Did you read at the end however, I think “JK!” is somewhere in his post.
LH,
Sorry, my comment was meant for an earlier post on this blog by “LR.” There are so many initials flying around on here, I got them mixed up. My apologies in case there was any confusion. I like what you said LH, you actually made sense.
Peace,
Jay
I just think its funny that PN wants to be an ultimate fighter but wont confront this issue. Calling out error with truth is not showing an unforgiving spirit. Dealing with error is not trying to tare down any thing but instead it builds and strengthens those who will listen not listening is the problem. ( read Proverbs 15:10 ). And to think this should be allowed to go unchecked is foolishness. I think this would really strengthen NS and take it to the next level (what ever that maybe)if the leadership could just get past the pride and take responsibility for their staffs actions. Taking responsibility would be nothing more than an apology to JD personally..If PN doesn’t do something..based on the amount of chatter both in public and on the web..its only going to get harder to bring about healing ( anyone who’s ever held the pastorate knows his mind is running with this )
@ Christina
Not hateful at all! Yes, I completely understand what you are saying. I wasn’t saying that this was an authoritative system in which he did have the ultimate control over anyone here. Just saying that by many people’s definition of calling someone out, that any Christian has the obligation, I guess, to call out any other Christian who is sinning. And since Professor Duncan wants everyone to call out people from NewSpring that are in the wrong, he should call out those who are listening to him. And I agree that we as a church should not be hateful. Hence my apology. And as for this being a blog, not a church, technically WE are the church, as a group of Christians, so this is a discussion among church members, despite where our attendance lies. I also apologize for some of my thoughts being scattered, I am not a very good writer in the least.
Melanie wrote “We have the same games (PS3, Wii) in the children’s ministries at our church and we are NOT a “rich church” and have between 150-200 attenders currently.
You don’t have to be rich to prioritize ministry to children and put things in the budget that will draw them in. Big misconception there. Lots of stereotyping going on here.”
I would ask, what is the need to have those things to “draw them in”… when did the Bible stop being enough to draw in God’s people to the temple? Answer: The Bible is STILL solely sufficient to draw them in… In adding the worldly elements of entertainment such as Wii and PS3 and similar items are not attempts to draw in God’s elect but to draw in the goats in hopes that they become sheep.
But what you attract them with is what you have to keep them with. Years ago youth ministers started bringing Nintendos and such into their youth rooms and now those youth are adults who have to go to “big church” on Sunday morning and they need that same hype level. They were never taught to treasure the Word of God in their hearts and so they need a band to play AC/DC music or for the “pastor” to appear cool and relevant.
Imagine if any church that had those type of entertainment draws tossed them out in favor or more Bible study or coming up with even more exciting ways to study the Word and praise God!
The misconception behind these “outreach” efforts is that church is for the unsaved. That’s incorrect. Check the book of Acts for starters… Church is for God’s people to gather together and worship God and be taught from the Word so that we can hit the streets and fulfill the Great Commission in our towns, jobs, schools, etc…
Now do we want, in our churches, to be welcoming to the “seeker” who comes in as a guest or off the street… absolutely… we want to welcome them and show them Christ with our actions as well as our words. But the day that churches began tailoring themselves to the unregenerate was a sad day in church history in deed.
I want to ask a serious question: While I recognize the difference between believers seeking forgiveness of other believers are we not as followers of Christ to forgive whether it’s asked for or not?
I think of the verses that state:
“Forgive as you’ve been forgiven”
“Bless those who curse you”
“pray for your enemies”
“consider it all joy when you suffer trials”
Forgiveness doesn’t require someone to seek forgiveness. Reconciliation probably does. I’m not really sure what Duncan wants out of NS at this point. I’ve said before they should apologize in some way, and that they should make some financial recompense. He should forgive them either way, but reconciliation would require at lease an acknowledgment by NS that Duncan was wronged. Doesn’t sound like that’s forthcoming.
The bigger issue for me, as someone who is neither a champion of NS nor a friend of Duncan, is that NS has created an unhealthy environment for dissent and open thinking. If PN is teaching God’s word, he shouldn’t fear any of his listeners comparing what he says with God’s word. His emphasis should be on fidelity to the bible, not blind loyalty to him or NS. Reasonable minds can disagree, but as long as we agree on the basic premises, there is plenty of room for dialogue. In my own life, I have learned a great deal from a few people that I vehemently disagree with on certain points. That’s what happens in the marketplace of ideas, and it’s a great thing.
Noble has created an environment where an employee and volunteers thought he would be impressed or amused by coarse, disgusting twitter messages about another professing believer. Maybe PN never saw these messages, but the very fact that Maxwell would direct these messages to Noble is telling about Maxwell’s view of what Noble would approve. Noble’s only statement about what happened was his admission that a NS staffer “crossed over the line” but not in the unabomber way. I’m curious when Noble thinks Maxwell crossed the line? The first gay porn email? The second? The computerized phone calls at night?
I think PN has many admirable qualities. I am very disappointed in his and NS’s handling of this affair. I have followed this blog, with regular comments, for six months or so. Though I have agreed with Duncan often, I have disagreed with him as much. I call them as I see them and I really enjoy a good debate. The idea that he or Noble would think that I hate either one of them because we disagree on an issue is hard for me to fathom. (I’m pretty sure Duncan doesn’t feel that way, and I’m sure I’m not on Nobel’s radar, but I wonder if commenting on a critic’s blog makes me a jackass, too?) You cannot please everyone, as Noble surely knows. But it’s foolhardy to assume that anyone who disagrees is simply a “hater.”
Demonising those who criticise you is a very dangerous thing to do, it means you are practically mandated not to listen to them!
And I don’t care how much you disagree with someone, the whole business of Maxwell’s behaviour is so far beyond the pale that it ought to have been shut down months before it was. No Christian has any business doing that sort of thing. Ever. In a big church like NewSpring there will always be people who are too attached to the pastor, and mentally unbalanced with it. It is part of the job of the pastoral staff to make sure those people don’t bring the Church into disrepute. This is a two-way street, after all. We are supposed to be above reproach, and while no church can control what others say about them, they can certainly control what they say, and since we know members of the the NS leadership followed the obscene Twitter account, they should have said that it was utterly unacceptable.
I write as a pastor of a small Church, and I can say that no pastor should dismiss all critics as evil. It seems to me that NS has confused thinking people are intellectually wrong with thinking they are morally wrong. This is quite understandable in our postmodern culture, where the category of intelletual error is not properly appreciated, but should have no place in the church.
Of course, it’s also a lot easier than actually making a substantive response to anyone. Which is probably why Gail Riplinger’s sycophants act much like Perry Noble’s.
I like what Pastor Jason has said about the games for the children.
A couple of further thoughts: If the kids are involved in games, when are they hearing the scriptures? If they are hearing the scripture, are their minds engaged with that, or thinking about nothing other than getting back to their games?
So, why exactly are the games there?
Glad you said something about some of the awful comments you’ve gotten. That’s what I thought while I was reading some of your other posts. How is it possible that they place this at YOUR feet!? I came across your site just today, also doing research on emergent material. Sorry to see you won’t be blogging since I just now found ya, but totally understand the reasoning.
God bless you and your family, and I am so sorry that you all had to go through all this. I still can’t get my chin off the floor.
To all those people who dont think NewSpring should be held accountable:
I work in surgery. What if your precious Perry had surgery and I willingly did something while he was asleep to cause him pain, either physically or emotionally, or both.
Would you not expect him to come after me..to go after the system that I work for? Even if they did not know my intentions, I promise there would be HUGE consequences for my actions. I bet you there would be a rally, or some big ass prayer service for him. You wouldnt be saying, “oh perry just forgive and forget.” You would be coming after me and the system with pitchforks and a very large amount of money in mind. Wouldnt you agree?
I’ve studied the postmodern “emergents” for 4 years now and frankly, I find that the so-called “loving” postmoderns are not. Many of them (not all) are very hypocritical, dishonest and hateful. You summed it up nicely in this paragraph above,
“An important part of Noble’s redefinition–he calls it reformation–effort is tearing down the traditional church. You don’t have to look far on his blog or listen long on a Sunday to see him besmirching the honor, motives or practices of other churches in the community. Pastors are commonly described as prostitutes, and churches as elitist country clubs that give the middle finger to their community. Church goers (not his own, of course) are characterized as religious bigots who don’t know Jesus.”
That probalby is one of the best descriptions of these churches and the movement as a whole that I’ve seen. Sadly, you haven’t studied these people enough because some of us who have could tell you how to fight them “postmodernly” without being hateful like them (and I don’t think you were). You cannot beat them with “traditional” methods. You have to “outpostmodernize” them.
As a member of New Spring I would like to reach out to you and your family and tell you how sorry I am for the pain that you and your family have been subjected to. There is no excuse for the actions of Maxwell and the others. I do not agree with how our pastoral staff handled this problem and do not feel like the statement the church put out on this matter is the “whole truth”. With all that said, I can share with you that Christ has and is working through New Spring. My husband and both of my children were saved and baptized at New Spring. We love our church home and enjoy worshiping and growing in our faith there. The events that have taken place have shaken us to the core and I pray for you, your family, and our church.
Missy
You wrote: “I can share with you that Christ has and is working through New Spring. My husband and both of my children were saved and baptized at New Spring.”
This is great news.
How can you have such a positive viewpoint of NS, if you: “do not agree with how our pastoral staff handled this problem and do not feel like the statement the church put out on this matter is the “whole truth”.”
So, the church lied publicly and the pastoral staff handled this issue incorrectly, and yet you: “We love our church home and enjoy worshiping and growing in our faith there.”
This is like an employee saying that they love Enron and enjoy working there, even though the execs made some poor decisions. Shouldn’t you just leave?
I think she means that she disagrees with how the pastoral staff handled its dealings with Duncan, but she feels the positive qualities of NS outweigh leadership problems manifested in their ham-fisted handling of the Duncan scandal. Hopefully most people will resist the urge to bail out on a church the first time they disagree with something the pastors do. Personally, I have other problems with NS, but if this was the only thing I probably wouldn’t leave either.