Comments on: Some posts to re-read with new eyes http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/ Media, Church, Culture Tue, 22 Dec 2009 05:51:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: JD http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7228 JD Mon, 14 Dec 2009 00:46:52 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7228 I think this particular blog post wraps you up in a nut shell. I see that you posted an excerpt of Mr. Noble's sermon and then completely took what he said and ran with it. I think if people what just sit back and look at what you do with people's words, which is just barely short of twisting them, they would see that your interpretation of what they say is all wrong. I COMPLETELY relate to what he is saying here and I notice will people criticize me in public to his/her friends. You act as if you're not human and you don't have thoughts of wanting to reach out and correct people somtimes. Notice I said thoughts. I never follow through with some of the thougths I have in this particular manner, but to deny that these thoughts exist would be a lie. I think that it means a lot to me for Mr. Noble to be somewhat transparent and to not have this "Holier than thou" attitude towards other people. He completely recognized the fact that he is human and is " in need of a savior". I'm sorry you can't see this and have sympathy or even see the little bit of humor that is involved here. I think this particular blog post wraps you up in a nut shell. I see that you posted an excerpt of Mr. Noble’s sermon and then completely took what he said and ran with it. I think if people what just sit back and look at what you do with people’s words, which is just barely short of twisting them, they would see that your interpretation of what they say is all wrong. I COMPLETELY relate to what he is saying here and I notice will people criticize me in public to his/her friends. You act as if you’re not human and you don’t have thoughts of wanting to reach out and correct people somtimes. Notice I said thoughts. I never follow through with some of the thougths I have in this particular manner, but to deny that these thoughts exist would be a lie. I think that it means a lot to me for Mr. Noble to be somewhat transparent and to not have this “Holier than thou” attitude towards other people. He completely recognized the fact that he is human and is ” in need of a savior”. I’m sorry you can’t see this and have sympathy or even see the little bit of humor that is involved here.

]]> By: Mark http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7185 Mark Fri, 11 Dec 2009 22:48:22 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7185 From the first comment, I meant that God works through situations that initially seem like the worst possible scenarios. This, of course, is not what one would consider a "good" situation. God can still work, though, and I hope that through this his glory is shown - and I know that it will take NS doing something more. Also, I have lived enough to know that there are indeed two sides, and that JDuncan's may be slightly skewed, as Newspring's could be as well. What I am saying is that what is seen from a third party, when all facts are brought forth, who doesn't side unevenly with either side, takes a look at the evidence and comes to a decision, that I would feel more comfortable with the situation. If things are brought to light that show the full extent to which each individual from Newspring's side were involved, so be it. Additionally, I really don't think they see just "adoring fans." I will not say that everyone who works there doesn't, but I fail to believe that it is an entire church leadership problem... And that if it is, God changes them dramatically in whatever way He sees fit in order to make things right. From the first comment, I meant that God works through situations that initially seem like the worst possible scenarios. This, of course, is not what one would consider a “good” situation. God can still work, though, and I hope that through this his glory is shown – and I know that it will take NS doing something more.

Also, I have lived enough to know that there are indeed two sides, and that JDuncan’s may be slightly skewed, as Newspring’s could be as well. What I am saying is that what is seen from a third party, when all facts are brought forth, who doesn’t side unevenly with either side, takes a look at the evidence and comes to a decision, that I would feel more comfortable with the situation. If things are brought to light that show the full extent to which each individual from Newspring’s side were involved, so be it.

Additionally, I really don’t think they see just “adoring fans.” I will not say that everyone who works there doesn’t, but I fail to believe that it is an entire church leadership problem… And that if it is, God changes them dramatically in whatever way He sees fit in order to make things right.

]]> By: Tommy F http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7153 Tommy F Fri, 11 Dec 2009 04:34:02 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7153 Mark You wrote: "God pulled some crazy stuff throughout The Word (in a fantastic way), and he works in us in ways we will never understand." Huh? Also, you wrote: "I still would like to know both sides fully" It appears you have a very clear picture of JDuncan's "side." Why won't NS share theirs? My guess? It's not very long, detailed, compassionate, or comprehensive. They didn't investigate or seek to stop any of it. They didn't care about JDuncan. And they still don't. They bury their heads in the sand, cover their ears when it comes to heretics, and only see adoring fans. It's really quite a dramatic use of the senses. Mark

You wrote: “God pulled some crazy stuff throughout The Word (in a fantastic way), and he works in us in ways we will never understand.”

Huh?

Also, you wrote: “I still would like to know both sides fully”

It appears you have a very clear picture of JDuncan’s “side.” Why won’t NS share theirs? My guess? It’s not very long, detailed, compassionate, or comprehensive. They didn’t investigate or seek to stop any of it.

They didn’t care about JDuncan. And they still don’t. They bury their heads in the sand, cover their ears when it comes to heretics, and only see adoring fans.

It’s really quite a dramatic use of the senses.

]]> By: Mark http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7144 Mark Thu, 10 Dec 2009 22:19:47 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7144 Tommy, I definitely agree with you in that a created culture can soon take a different course than originally intended. It does sting a great deal that something like this could happen, and I do think that anyone who was involved should be heavily chastised, be it by removing them from a place of leadership or counseling or whatever may be deemed necessary for the situation. I also know that every church has issues, and while this is in no way condoning any person of any congregation to act as a few did at NewSpring, I do think that this issue may create some changes. Maybe now, maybe in the future, but I pray sometime. God pulled some crazy stuff throughout The Word (in a fantastic way), and he works in us in ways we will never understand. And briefly going back to the culture idea, the churches I have been to all have a culture that "allows" things like this or somewhat like this (OK, maybe this is a bit extreme, even though in all my time at NewSpring, even as I watch Perry on the web, I have NEVER thought about doing what these guys did), but the reason it occurs is because humanity is full of idiots who need a savior. I am one of them, and as an elementary school teacher, I know that as much as I love my kids and try to tell them what is right vs. wrong, it doesn't always work. They trust me, they love me, and they still will go against what they know to be good and right. Again, this in no way condones anything that has occurred... I still would like to know both sides fully, and I know that it is because I once was a member at Newspring. Also know that I AM extremely bothered by what has happened and deeply saddened that it has brought pain to this family. I hope that all can be figured out and that whatever needs to happen will. Tommy, I definitely agree with you in that a created culture can soon take a different course than originally intended. It does sting a great deal that something like this could happen, and I do think that anyone who was involved should be heavily chastised, be it by removing them from a place of leadership or counseling or whatever may be deemed necessary for the situation. I also know that every church has issues, and while this is in no way condoning any person of any congregation to act as a few did at NewSpring, I do think that this issue may create some changes. Maybe now, maybe in the future, but I pray sometime. God pulled some crazy stuff throughout The Word (in a fantastic way), and he works in us in ways we will never understand.

And briefly going back to the culture idea, the churches I have been to all have a culture that “allows” things like this or somewhat like this (OK, maybe this is a bit extreme, even though in all my time at NewSpring, even as I watch Perry on the web, I have NEVER thought about doing what these guys did), but the reason it occurs is because humanity is full of idiots who need a savior. I am one of them, and as an elementary school teacher, I know that as much as I love my kids and try to tell them what is right vs. wrong, it doesn’t always work. They trust me, they love me, and they still will go against what they know to be good and right.

Again, this in no way condones anything that has occurred… I still would like to know both sides fully, and I know that it is because I once was a member at Newspring. Also know that I AM extremely bothered by what has happened and deeply saddened that it has brought pain to this family. I hope that all can be figured out and that whatever needs to happen will.

]]> By: Tommy F http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7107 Tommy F Thu, 10 Dec 2009 05:25:41 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7107 Mark, With all of these nice things to say about Perry, then it should sting quite a lot that NS helped create a culture that allowed this to happen to a Christian. I'm a little surprised that you. Just because someone has a positive impact in your life doesn't excuse their behavior in the lives of others. Mark,

With all of these nice things to say about Perry, then it should sting quite a lot that NS helped create a culture that allowed this to happen to a Christian. I’m a little surprised that you. Just because someone has a positive impact in your life doesn’t excuse their behavior in the lives of others.

]]> By: Mark http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7103 Mark Thu, 10 Dec 2009 04:38:10 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7103 As a former member of Newspring, and as someone who attended their services from the year 2000 up until about 2.5 years ago, all that I can say is that some of the most awesome people I have ever met hold leadership positions there. I loved every minute of my time there, and left because I felt called to a different ministry (volunteer-wise) at a different church. I love Perry and I love the way he teaches, mainly because it is in such a way that was (and still is) relevant FOR ME. When I left, I struggled with going to a church where Perry didn't pastor - I missed his humor and intensity (and his humor is something I connected with, although I know it is not for everyone). I even got to the point where I was judging my current church for its lack of "Newpring-osity" (and please note that this feeling was over time because of my own selfish wants). What I came to realize is that churches are different for a reason. My current church is not supposed to be Newspring, and Newspring is not supposed to be like my current church - that's the beauty! My brothers and sisters in Christ still attend, and I personally know and converse with members of the staff there. I do know that FOR ME, God used Newspring to make some radical changes that I can still see working themselves out today - and it's amazing! Perry has always challenged me in a great way to seek and serve God, and for that I will always be thankful to him (for listening to God's call) and God (for giving me the opportunity to worship and serve there as a volunteer for 7 years). As a former member of Newspring, and as someone who attended their services from the year 2000 up until about 2.5 years ago, all that I can say is that some of the most awesome people I have ever met hold leadership positions there. I loved every minute of my time there, and left because I felt called to a different ministry (volunteer-wise) at a different church. I love Perry and I love the way he teaches, mainly because it is in such a way that was (and still is) relevant FOR ME. When I left, I struggled with going to a church where Perry didn’t pastor – I missed his humor and intensity (and his humor is something I connected with, although I know it is not for everyone). I even got to the point where I was judging my current church for its lack of “Newpring-osity” (and please note that this feeling was over time because of my own selfish wants). What I came to realize is that churches are different for a reason. My current church is not supposed to be Newspring, and Newspring is not supposed to be like my current church – that’s the beauty! My brothers and sisters in Christ still attend, and I personally know and converse with members of the staff there. I do know that FOR ME, God used Newspring to make some radical changes that I can still see working themselves out today – and it’s amazing! Perry has always challenged me in a great way to seek and serve God, and for that I will always be thankful to him (for listening to God’s call) and God (for giving me the opportunity to worship and serve there as a volunteer for 7 years).

]]> By: David Strickland http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7058 David Strickland Tue, 08 Dec 2009 19:26:06 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7058 This criticism is absolutely right AND biblical AND called FOR. If you have no problem sending your children to this "church" then by all means go right ahead. For the rest of us though, we will continue to bring this church out into the open for the world to see what they really are. And hopefully, they themselves will see what they really are. It's never too late to get right. But you have to be willing to change, no one can do it for you. I imagine this mainly for the benefit of the community and I for one appreciate the heads up. This type of criticism alerted me about it. I made me go and see for myself and it turned out that everything I was hearing is true. This criticism is absolutely right AND biblical AND called FOR. If you have no problem sending your children to this “church” then by all means go right ahead. For the rest of us though, we will continue to bring this church out into the open for the world to see what they really are. And hopefully, they themselves will see what they really are. It’s never too late to get right. But you have to be willing to change, no one can do it for you. I imagine this mainly for the benefit of the community and I for one appreciate the heads up. This type of criticism alerted me about it. I made me go and see for myself and it turned out that everything I was hearing is true.

]]> By: Paul http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7050 Paul Tue, 08 Dec 2009 16:22:57 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7050 I am still amazed that so many people think that serious biblical criticism is wrong...especially from pastors who are called to be keeping out wolves. Is there not any more discernment and wisdom in evangelicalism? I am still amazed that so many people think that serious biblical criticism is wrong…especially from pastors who are called to be keeping out wolves. Is there not any more discernment and wisdom in evangelicalism?

]]> By: iMark http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7048 iMark Tue, 08 Dec 2009 15:57:56 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7048 First, church might be boring to some, but that is <a href="http://hereiblog.com/church-is-boring/" rel="nofollow">their fault</a>, IMO. Second, the only thing Noble really said that was biblical was that we are called to preach Christ crucified. Then, he quotes Rick Warren on how to deal with critics. Couldn't he have consulted the Bible to show how to handle such items? Does he want to grow a culture where people get angry and make fun rather than trying to come along side and try to understand? There may be some validity to a critic no matter who you are. There also may be a problem with exactly what someone was saved to. Reacting from just what is heard, especially, when there is a chance for clarification may not always be the best response. First, church might be boring to some, but that is their fault, IMO.

Second, the only thing Noble really said that was biblical was that we are called to preach Christ crucified. Then, he quotes Rick Warren on how to deal with critics.

Couldn’t he have consulted the Bible to show how to handle such items? Does he want to grow a culture where people get angry and make fun rather than trying to come along side and try to understand?

There may be some validity to a critic no matter who you are. There also may be a problem with exactly what someone was saved to. Reacting from just what is heard, especially, when there is a chance for clarification may not always be the best response.

]]> By: Wes http://www.pajamapages.com/some-posts-to-read-with-new-eyes/comment-page-1/#comment-7042 Wes Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:17:16 +0000 http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3884#comment-7042 I've been following this from a distance with interest - in part because my oldest son is headed into the ministry... Is THIS the type of mentor he will encounter? God help him and all of us. When did people like Noble, Furtick, Lamb, etc lose sight or the primary call of the ministry? Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep, not beat them up! Real pastors love their people and pursue those who stray, not threaten them. We need to recover the Biblical view of "pastor" as a shepherd rather than a leader. As for New Spring, et al, lie any harvest it may be slow in coming, but they should heed Paul's warning in Gal. 6:7. I'll remember to pray for you and your family. I’ve been following this from a distance with interest – in part because my oldest son is headed into the ministry… Is THIS the type of mentor he will encounter? God help him and all of us. When did people like Noble, Furtick, Lamb, etc lose sight or the primary call of the ministry? Jesus told Peter to feed his sheep, not beat them up! Real pastors love their people and pursue those who stray, not threaten them. We need to recover the Biblical view of “pastor” as a shepherd rather than a leader. As for New Spring, et al, lie any harvest it may be slow in coming, but they should heed Paul’s warning in Gal. 6:7. I’ll remember to pray for you and your family.

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