Where are you, Minnesota guy?

Overall, I agree with your post in its seriousness of worship, but I still think the commandment either needs to stay with Saturday or is open for moving. Is this an accomodation? Sure, but so are English translations of the Greek NT. I think most Christians ought to take worship more seriously, but I don’t care at all what day they gather on.

Sufficiently sharpened (Prov 27:17). Well at least you are.

Thanks for the back-and-forth. Where’d Seth, Nolan, and Sara go? Others?

No, it doesn’t matter if Christians gather during the week. I think, though, that there is a qualitative difference between a church’s weekly business and its Lord’s Day worship. What meeting are we making our priority? What is the pinnacle of our corporate worship? That should be the Sabbath, and it should be designed for believers (to rehash my original argument).

I think Acts 13:42-44 provides a model. The Apostles met on the Sabbath for worship and preaching, apparently talked with the believers throughout the week urging them to continue in the grace of God, then met again the following week. Verse 44 suggests that it was clearly the priority and highlight of all they did in those seven days.

I thought I addressed the jobs issue in the last post, but (again) no, I don’t think most of your folks should quit their jobs. Jesus allowed exceptions to Sabbath requirements in cases of practical need. Exceptions to a rule shouldn’t disqualify the rule, though. All other things being equal, churches and believers should seek to have their most serious worship correspond with God’s ordained day. May I refer you to my argument #6 again. God gave us the day as a sign and for our benefit, so why would we try to miss it if we have the choice?

The same person? What? I’m not sure who should be more insulted. My current nominee … probably your wife.

Moving on: I concur with your overall complaint that RWarren needs to read his Bible more closely and preach it more fully, but I’m still not convinced that Wed church is “bad” (my label for your position – you can offer another). Does it really matter if Christians gather on Wednesday or Thursday or Sunday to praise, honor, glorify, and exalt their creator? After all, churches often assemble on Wed for additional training, teaching, singing, worship, etc. Do you think they should pack it up and just attend on Sunday (and in some cases – a la Piper – Sat night)? Why confuse things with worship outside of the Sabbath?

Also, I know people who attempt to keep the spirit of the Sabbath by working 6 days, and resting on 1 – but are unable to maintain the same day – it rotates based on their work schedule. I know people who go to church, but not on Sunday who are pleased with the flexibility. Would you advise them to quit their jobs so they can worship on the “right” day?

I look forward to your future posts. My guess is that I’ll agree with the spirit of them, even though we’re starting off from different sides. Should be interesting.

For anyone who thought we were the same person, this probably puts that mistaken assumption to rest. I was waiting for God to delete your post, but it seems like he’s not, so I’ll have to respond (given that I can’t fire you, either).

Although there is no explicit command to observe the Sabbath on Sunday, the requirement to keep the Lord’s day holy continues through the NT. We do see evidence that the first Christians had switched their observance to the first day (1 Corinthians 16:1-2, Acts 20:7), in response to Christ’s resurrection on the same day.

As for observance on another day, I think Jesus’ teaching on the Sabbath tells us that there are times when people (doctors, law enforcement, etc) won’t be able to worship on Sunday and will need to find another day. Piper has a thoughtful defense of his own church’s Saturday evening service. It’s such a sharp contrast to Warren in his serious treatment of Scripture. His basic conclusion is that Saturday evening is an early start on the Sabbath, not a replacement of it. He still expects his Saturday worshippers to treat the Lord’s day as a day of rest. Its unlikely that Warren’s Wednesday church is able to match their day of rest with their observance of worship.

The most striking difference is in the section of Warren’s explanation that I bolded. “So that’s why we decided…” Piper exposits Scripture before coming to what seems to be a tentative conclusion that Saturday worship is acceptable (though he says that Sunday is preferred). Warren polls his community and that’s enough for him to completely divorce worship from the Sabbath. He also removes even the possibility of rich Christian Sabbath worship from his church.

I have no quarrel with your observation that many Christians don’t treat Sunday as they should, but that is kind of my point. The Lord’s Day remains the Lord’s Day, no matter how we treat it.

Yes, TF, the post was intended as the foundation of a series of posts (the next will be coming on Monday) on how the presumption that we can change church to suit our neighbors is the snowflake (well, a bit more significant, but I need it for the metaphor) that starts the avalanche. The ultimate outcome is really the abolition of the physical church, and it’s something that some of these folks are already talking about.

Seems like the God of Sunday morning is gone by Sunday noon-time.

JDuncan,

I like a lot of what you post and agree with even more of it (especially #5 for today), but I’ve got a slightly different view of the Sabbath, since I can’t get a handle on its proper placement (which day?) or content (what should I (not) do on it?). I have trouble with what the proper content of the Sabbath should be, and I certainly don’t ever observe it on the 7th day of the week. Nowhere in the NT does it cancel the sabbath as day 7 and transfer the commandment to the first day of the week (most churches observe it on Sunday – and then mistakenly call it the Sabbath). And furthermore, most Christians ignore the purpose of the Sabbath (ministers included), right after church … and instead they go out to eat, go to the movies, go shopping, and some even … work. By this they reduce the Sabbath to a few hours, rather than sun down to sun down. So, while they’ve kept the requirement for when worship is they’ve completely collapsed its function into some songs and a sermon.

As far as I can tell, RWarren back in the early 80s probably applied some similar theology and decided that the day and time were flexible (this is where your #7 is a stretch, I’d say), and decided that he should mix things up a bit for the Californians. And there are local churches where I live that have a typical worship services throughout the week – they call it Mass. What if someone works on Sunday and finds it impossible to regularly attend worship on Sunday, and so they attend on a different day. Are they being improper with their day and time for worship?

Also, I am curious if you are posting this as more of a warning for future degradations of the Sabbath (for example: online church) than as a lament of RWarren’s move from Sunday to Wednesday. As I read your post I couldn’t help but wonder: does JDuncan think churches should only have fellowship and worship on Sunday? And, why has he transferred a very clear commandment for the Sabbath, to a different day of the week?