Tommy reconstructs his censored comments
Posted: May 5th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Blogging, Cooper, Tommy | 43 Comments »Tommy F emailed the following report on what happened at the Brad Cooper blog last week. From what I recall from reading the original discussion, his report here is substantively correct.
The gist of my various posts are below (3 were deleted from BCoop’s site). I have not made any attempt to make them either more polite or more pointed. This posting represents both the spirit and, to a large degree, the letter of what I wrote on BCoop’s site. In the originals, there were no offensive words, no expletives, and no personal attacks. In other words, there was no good reason to delete them. You’ll just have to take my word for it.
Apparently 15,000 people don’t care at all that their pastor and his leadership team have 0 seminary degrees among them. Or perhaps they just don’t know, which is why BCoop needed to delete my posts. This is conjecture, of course. But, if the information was incorrect, he could have simply corrected it. If it is true, but he didn’t want it to be publicized, well that takes a slightly different approach, doesn’t it? I call it the enema approach to blogging (H/T: Ace Noble).
On a less personal note: I find it disturbing that a youth minister’s blog feels it necessary to delete posts recommending theological education. Are they against education? Theology? Or just the combination of the two? Seriously.
I confess that I think highly of ministerial education. Is it perfect? No, but I think if all things are equal a seminary trained minister has a wider breadth of knowledge and has shown the proper dedication of basic preparation for his/her calling. I think it’s clear that Paul had a high view of training, the parchments (the scriptures), and clear teaching when he advised Timothy. For a few passages related to this, see: 1 Tim 1:6-7; 1 Tim 5:22; 1 Tim 6:20-21; 2 Tim 3:14-17; 2 Tim 4:1-4; 2 Tim 4:13.
On to the tantalizingly delete-worthy posts:
1) Theblakebutler wrote:
“@ Tommy F- I believe you need to make a distinction between apostles and disciples here if you are going to split hairs and cause dissension.”
My response:
I should begin by saying that I am not trying to cause dissension. As I see it this is a difference of opinion and perspective: I prefer my church leadership to have deep theological training, while others, apparently … not so much.
Blake asked whether I should make a distinction between apostles and disciples. This distinction is important and vital, and I’m glad he brought it up.
From the angle of apostles and disciples, the argument against going to seminary relies precisely on not making a proper distinction. As I understand it, the argument (at its simplest) runs as follows:
The 12 (apostles) never went to seminary, so why should I/we (21st century disciples)?
There is a big difference between ministering with Jesus in the flesh for 3+ years, listening to him teach, watching him perform miracles, and observing how he dealt with people (both those sympathetic to Jesus’ ministry and those opposed), compared with the situation that Christians find themselves in today.
In fact, I would argue that it is impossible to parallel the experience of the 12 with any discipleship training that could be experienced today. The approach has to be different. Distincitons need to be made between 1st century followers of Jesus and 21st century ones.
I would argue further that the 12 experienced both ministerial on-the-job training while learning the requisite teaching required, and still they were stunned by the crucifixion, and were completely surprised that he rose on the third day. All of this, after following him for 3+ years.
Following the example of the 12 as a reason to avoid seminary is a fool’s errand. Too much time has passed, and Jesus is not walking the earth any longer.
On to the other substantive point made by theblakebutler:
“Tommy writes all of the time on other outlets about not preaching from the word, but I cannot find anywhere where getting a degree certifies and qualifies one to stand in a pulpit. Are you claiming that this should be an addendum to the Gospel? Yes we are to equip ourselves, but can a relationship with the father not simply be enough?”
My response:
I do not think that a degree qualifies one to stand in the pulpit, but often it can prepare someone to know what to say and do, once there. But, more importantly a theological education trains one to know what is erroneous and what is true. In other words it has the effect of preparing one for what should be said (truth), as well as what should not be said (error).
Overall, it seems to me that those who say seminary is an option for full-time ministers are trying to divide what Jesus joined: teaching and training coupled with ministry experience.
2) BCoop was not impressed with my follow-up comment, and came back with this gem:
“NS has a rule”…. id beg you to not make assumptions — you know how that can be perceived…
My original reply to BCoop (before he hit the delete button) was:
NS gives advice to young people re: seminary every time they utter the word cemetery regarding ministerial education. In fact, NS has a unified message regarding theological education. They don’t think it’s worthwhile. BCoop, this is not an assumption. It’s a conclusion drawn from evidence:
1) NS leaders explicitly call seminary cemetery. Not exactly a glowing endorsement, is it?
2) No one on their leadership team has completed a seminary degree. No, not one.
I suppose it’s not a rule in the sense that it’s in their operating manual, but it’s a unified stance regarding language and hiring practice. And I am fairly certain that these two points communicate a level of expectation from the students who look up to them and seek guidance. The combination of calling ministerial education cemetery and not having anyone on the leadership team with a seminary degree communicates loud and clear to high school and college students how NS views seminary: “don’t go. Don’t waste your time. We didn’t.”
3) Spencer wrote:
“I’ve been in the trenches four years w/o a degree. i have a friend who is graduating from four years of bible school this month with a degree in youth ministry.
“i’d put my experience versus his academics any day.”
I have a very simple two-fold reply:
1) Any Bible College that allows a ministerial student to finish without substantive ministry experience is not a very good one. If all s/he has is 4 years of classes, and no experience, then your friend should have gone elsewhere.
2) The posting relies on faulty logic. In the scenario Spencer presents, both individuals need to complete their training: he has 4 yrs of ministry, but no education. His friend has 4 yrs of Bible college, but no experience. Neither is fully prepared in my view.
When it comes to ministry and education, it’s not either/or. It’s both/and.
Similar Posts:
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- BCooP tweets @TommyF
- Not to pile on…
- How do you ignore this?
Dear God – I pray and I ask You to please pour your blessings and your love on Perry Noble and Brad Cooper and NewSpring Church. Please grant them the wisdom, strength, endurance, and discernment that is needed to lead people. Would you please put your Word, your vision, and your desires on their heart? Because their word, vision, and desire is not good enough. They need you. These men and this church are huge influences on the Upstate of South Carolina and the rest of the United States. Likewise – please pour your blessings and love on the contributors to the Pajama Pages. I truly believe that what they are doing is out of a desire to glorify You. Please be with them if their intent is to bring division or to maliciously attack Your work. God – we both know this – these people aren’t stupid. They know You and that You are great and that Your name is greatly to be praised. So God – I ask you to please be with them. God for these Critics – I pray that they would not become NewSpringers. Please continue to mold them and transform their lives by renewing their minds. Diversity is great. Your name is praised in the “traditional church” just as much as it is praised in the NewSprings of the world. Jesus – your prayer is that we would be one as You and the Father are one. Please help us to attain that goal. Help us to understand that no one person or church is the enemy. Help us to join together. Help us to fight together. Sure – some people are never going to see eye to eye with Perry. Some people will never see eye to eye with the Pajama Pages. And surely not many people will see eye to eye with me. But Jesus – I love you. I want to see eye to eye with you. God – I beg that you’re will is done. And I pray and ask all these things in Your perfect name. Amen.
Blake-
There are two ways that any of us could respond to what you’ve written:
1) We – as readers and commenters – could critique your prayer for any and all theologically suspect statements, snicker over your grammar and punctuation, and take your statements out of context. Or…
2) We could ignore the differences that we may have with you, realize that our cause is common, and simply say ‘Amen.’
Amen.
I can affirm an “Amen” on Blake’s prayer, although some of the language is a bit odd. This whole unity thing is hard to pull off when Ace refuses to promote it through his tweets, sermons, and blogs. It seems that his version of unity is “agree with me.”
I think that many NS defenders miss the point. They think PP readers and writers are anti-NS. The funny thing is that Ace Noble is anti-everyone but NS. He’s always cracking on other churches. He can’t help himself. So, PP writers are criticized for being negative, when Ace leads the way in this category. Why tolerate it from him, but not from us?
So, regarding this thread, what I am curious about is whether anyone thinks BCoop was right to delete my posts. Can someone argue on behalf of NS, that seminary = cemetery, and that it’s not relevant that their leadership team has no one who has completed 1 seminary degree? And if they’re right shouldn’t they be bragging about it rather than deleting it?
Blake, I, too, pray that God will renew my mind, but did you mean to imply that the consequence of that renewing is that Tommy and I could not be NS members?
(Sorry Tommy, I went off topic.)
didn’t mean to imply that at all. in fact i love that you aren’t at newspring. newspring isn’t for everyone. God is going to use you at your church and me at mine and perry and brad at theirs.
Tommy F.
Whether or not he had reason to delete the post is up to him, and he decided to do it. Its his blog and he can do what he wants, if James Duncan wanted to delete this post yes I would not be happy and it would mean to me that you didn’t like what I was saying. But for wutever reason, Brad decided to delete the post, get over it and move on. its not coming back. I have learned that to try and figure out why certain people do certian things certain ways is not worth my time. But in regards to seminary, I am at the pont in my life where I am deciding if I am called to seminary or if I am not. There are good aurguments on both sides for wwhether or not to go to seminary and I personally think it should be left up to the person to decide which is right for them. And based upon what Newspring has done, I don’t think its relevant that they don’t have anyone with a seminary degree on leadership. I think for the people they are trying to reach in the area of the country they are located, it doesn’t matter, if they were in a more metropolitan area, then the intellect gained at seminary would be of greater value b/c of the type of people who would be coming to the church.
Also, Perry is not anti everyone but Newspring, do you have any idea the number of pastors across the country he keeps in contact with, the number of churches he goes and visits and listens to other people preach, the number of one-on-ones that he has with other pastors and the amount of learning he has done.
And I’m not here to attack anyone, I just hope to give alittle more insight into what NS does and what they are about since i lead a home group for a short while.
Seth: a few things. 1) I’d like to begin with some unsolicited advice: regarding your own decision about seminary. You seem like someone who has a lot of potential. After all, you’re almost the only NS defender that actually engages the issues. Take a class or two and then decide if it’s worth pursuing. I know that skipping seminary is the easy thing to do (and cheaper in the short term), but in the 21st century we don’t need idiots running churches. We need men and women who know the Bible, theology, and history. The enemy seems to knows more about spiritual warfare, belief and unbelief, etc. than a lot of church leaders. Giving up on education leads to an anemic church, being fed only milk, and not meat. At some point every Christian must grow up and get rid of the baby bottle, and get out the cutlery for a fine steak (1 Cor 3:1-3).
2) You’ve misunderstood my point about BCoop. I don’t care why BCoop deleted the posts. After all I know why: he disagreed, but it was more than that. He asked a question. I gave very brief, and sound advice – it’s what hundreds of thousands of ministers have done for hundreds of years. He could have debated the matter. This is what grown-ups do. Instead, he’s like my neighbor: when he begins to lose, suddenly it’s dinner time. A more mature response would have been a sustained discussion, with some questions back-and-forth. What did we get? Delete, delete, scrub, scrub. The point of my email to JDuncan was to have his readers consider whether he was right in doing so. Does disagreement alone qualify for a post to be deleted?
3) According to your first paragraph: Only smart congregations need learned leadership. And since NewSpringers – who are for the most part South Carolinians – are dumb, having dumb leadership is okay. Wow! That’s a winning argument. It won’t work, however, as NS begins to branch out (like a bank) around the U.S. Think Californians cosmopolitans will appreciate a dumb SCar pastor?
4) 1st paragraph still. You wrote: “There are good aurguments on both sides for wwhether or not to go to seminary….” You’re right: To be (dumb) or not to be (dumb)? That is the question.
5) Your 2nd Paragraph: As I said earlier: Ace’s view of unity is: “Agree with me.” If you listen closely to what he’s saying (weekly), he has a real problem with other churches. It’s amazing that one pastor can have such an anti-church bias. It just seeps out of him.
In closing: Seth. Keep up the good work. You seem bright. You make PP better.
Tommy F.
I actually was planning on going to seminary and see if it is right for me. Also, Perry has said repeatedly that he loves to preach to people in the south, that people from other parts of the country don’t get his jokes or get his illistrations.
I would like for you or someone to show me a passage of scripture that talks about going to seminary. Actual verses.
And as one that goes to NS and knows about them, I know that Perry seems to have an anti-church basis, but did Jesus not have the same thing? no, Im not calling Perry Jesus, Im saying that Jesus taught in the religious areas and he spoke to religious people. Some of the harshes words he spoke were to the religious people of his day. The people who claimed they knew god but didn’t. To them it was all about wut we can do to get to God. That is why Perry does what he does. Let me say again, I and NOT saying Perry is Jesus, just that he is following him and trying to be like Jesus, just like we are called to be.
Also, I doubt Newspring will ever go to major, metropilitain areas, it doesn’t fit who they are. Yes, they are going to Kenya right now, but I doubt anyone in the USA outside of the south would be drawn or understand Perry. and I know thta people in SC don’t understand him either, thats ok too, just go find a church that fits who you are.
And yes, I think that anyone who has a blog can delete any comment they want, that is the right they have since it is THEIR blog. now was he in the wrong or right, I personally do not believe in deleting blog posts. But I think i may know why he did that…awhile back, Perry decided to stop going to other peoples blogs who pretty much hated him, tore him apart, belittled him, anything that was not constructive to NS. he and his leadership staff stopped going to these sites and they also decided not to waste time fighting those people. And I would assume that BCoop is doing just that, or something along those lines.
Also, if someone at my funture church isn’t sold into the vision for the church that God gave me, I would want them to leave also. If someone isn’t sold into the vision, they wont give it their all, they may cause dissention in the church, they may backstab the pastor, or they may not be using their spiritual gifts to the max. And the list really does go on.
And by the way, I do listen to Perry very closely and he is just against those churches whom don’t follow of honor God or that don’t preach the Bible.
Tommy, you say, “NewSpringers – who are for the most part South Carolinians – are dumb, having dumb leadership is okay. Wow! That’s a winning argument.”
When is your next bumper sticker coming out?
JDuncan thanks for reminding me that it’s about time for new one.
NewSpringers: Our slogan has now changed. Please get rid of all your old t-shirts with the No Perfect People Allowed slogan.
This Sunday we’ll unveil our new t-shirt and bumper sticker!!!!!!! Here’s a hint: It’s going to be freakin!!!! AWESOME. DO NOT MISS THIS SUNDAY. It’s our best bumper sticker yet. Make sure you get one for every car. Let’s Blitz A-town with these stickers… It is so FREAKIN awesome that it’s actually 2 stickers: Put one on the left and the other on the right. If it gets confusing be sure to read the directions. And we’re going to have a 24-hour helpline in case you get confused. We’re trying to make it EASY!!
Left sticker: NewSpring: No smart people allowed.
Right sticker: NewSpring: Only dumb people allowed.
The most EXCITING part is that our pastor has his own special 2-part version TOO!!!:
Left sticker: I don’t like theology, which is a good thing.
Right sticker: My congregation can’t understand it anyway.
Ok…I’ve got a few things to say/ask.
1) Perry isn’t against seminary…he went and basically finished it. He went long enough to get what he needed…the classes he didn’t do was the door-to-door evangelism classes (I know that’s not the name of the class, but hopefully you know the type of class I’m talking about). Since I know you guys don’t think the point of seminary is the degree, but the education…that should be good enough. Right??
2) I’ve sat and had questions for Perry about seminary over a dinner one night. I was asking him whether or not I should pursue seminary or not…here’s what he said. He told me that he thought it was a calling and that you shouldn’t just jump into making a decision…whether in favor or against. Pray and seek God’s voice was his advise concerning this. He explained that it is very important to be able to study the scriptures in an efficient and effective way, but how you learn that is not necessarily limited to seminary. He said that learning is crucial and that you MUST learn somehow. He went on to explain that for some people seminary is the best way to do it…and for others it is sitting and learning under a 1 on 1 mentoring relationship with a pastor who can teach.
3) The church is a global thing right??…not just limited to America. What would your advise be to someone who lives in, let’s say,…Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, etc. where seminary isn’t an option. There probably isn’t a seminary in the whole country…So obviously seminary isn’t a prerequisite for ministry.
Thoughts??
Nolan:
I’d rethink your conversation with ANoble. Sorry, but I choose to believe both what Noble says (cemetery) and does (hires people with 0 degrees), rather than what he has told you.
1) He lacks more than an evangelism course (unless in the past 6 years he’s been secretly going through a degree program – which would be problematic in light of what he says about seminary – wouldn’t it?).
2) Anyone who refers to seminary as cemetery is being negative. He may privately say differently, but that means he’s not being honest – either with you or in public. You choose.
3) If he has such a high view of seminary, why does NS leadership have 0 seminary degrees? Their hiring practice supports my claim: their advice is “Don’t Go.” They routinely hire people who have no theological education.
Multiple choice question: NS doesn’t hire seminary grads because they’re against?
A) education
B) theology
C) paying people with Masters degrees
D) hiring people more educated than they are
Nolan: I skipped past your #3, sorry.
Many seminaries are filled with foreign students who have put their life savings on the line to attend seminary in the U.S. (you’ll see this when you go). And many seminaries are establishing partnerships in distant lands to equip ministers in other countries. Why? Because it’s in demand.
In the past, the clergy was one of the only educated segments of the population. Now, we’re moving in reverse. If the NS trend continues, we’ll end up with clergy being some of the most uneducated people in society. This is not a good trend for Noble’s de-formation.
I would like to correct a statement, NS has one person with a seminary degree on staff. They don’t have anyone on leadership but they do have at least one overall staff member who has one. And also, the statements about seminary are true, in my meetings with NS staff one-on-one, I too have heard from them to prayerfully seek whether or not to attend seminary school. When Perry says that (and he isn’t the only pastor I have heard say it that way) he is making it a joke. I have heard that joke in many circles.Thats because the people he is reaching are the unchurched/people who have had bad past church experiences, therefore, if you make a joke about that, it helps connect with the sudience. I have even heard pastors who have graduated from seminary call it cemetary.
And in answer to your multiple choice question, its E) other. The answer being they hire from within most of the time. Its their assimilation process, people can. not all do, go from volunteer to satff. Alot of churches out there also do that as well. So why don’t they hire anyone with seminary degrees, because the people they have volunteering don’t go to seminary, why? because they are ordinary people who love Jesus and listen to the Holy Spirit.
The seminary graduate wants to find work when he gets out, not volunteer at a church in hopes of getting a job, which is why there is only one person with a seminary degree. That also falls into line with the vision, someone who is a memeber, then volunteer, and then staff member is sold out to the vision, where as a seminary graduate who has never been to the church may not be sold out to the vision or agree with it and that would create conflict and also would not allow the new outside staff member to reach his potential.
Seth, your final paragraph suggests that the answer is really D.
Leaders discourage learning, then they hire only people attracted to that mindset. When Perry Noble hires only little Perry Nobles, you’re just amplifying the ignorance.
Seth: Your most recent post is most interesting.
I’d like to label it “Inbreeding 101.” (Can’t you already picture the bumper sticker?)
1) For clarification you haven’t corrected my claim that there are 0 seminary grads on NS leadership, you’ve confirmed it. And what makes it worse is the declaration that 1 staff member has a degree in a church with 10,000+ attendees. This is a very odd ratio. What you describe is the blind leading the blind. Or the blind blindly following whatever Noble says.
2) I’d wager that there are more people who attend NS who have a seminary degree than are on staff. What do you think of that dynamic?
3) What you’ve articulated is a very insulated atmosphere, where anyone outside NS – and the vision – is excluded. Think about a healthy company, school, or organization that had the same attitude: we don’t hire outsiders, they might ask questions like “why?” or “what’s the basis?” In fact, what you describe is a very unhealthy way to hire and let a church grow in ways it might not otherwise.
4) While it’s certainly a poor way to hire people, it’s also very unhealthy for the young person climbing the NS volunteer-staff ladder. The person who follows this path has one future employer: NS. Other churches will want a seminary degree or will want them to climb a similar ladder, to certify that they’ve bought into the vision. So, if you go down this path, you need to stay on board with the vision and agree with Noble at every turn or you’ll be let go and out of work, and out of potential employers, with no degree. Sounds eerily similar to a story last month, doesn’t it?
Tommy F.
On number 2, i think that dynamic has a few major flaws. If there are more people with a seminary degree attending NS than on staff, they must be learning something or else they would have gone to another church where they could learn from someone smarter, right? So Perry must be teaching something right, and as much or more knowledge than the seminary grads have for them to be staying. And if seminary is so important and you learn so much, then a grad would be able to tell that NS’s teaching was wrong and would leave and not stay. what do you think of that line of thinking?
To number 3, but this isn’t a business, its a Church. And also, owning a business management degree, in the business world, it is always best to promote from within than to go out and get talent, unless that person is of great talent. And I would say NS is a very healthy church, its growing, lives are begin changed, the gospel is being preached, Jesus is being followed. If you don’t call that a healthy church, I am sure interested to know what a healthy church is then? please enlighten me. And also, a church setting is the only place where hiring from within the group is helpful. it goes back to the people who attend already agree with the vision, therefore, there is no division within the church and the church leadership, instead of fighting and dealing with internal differences, can unite together, like we are called to do by Christ, and can go out and acomplish what God has called that church to do. Also, Look at the church in Acts, they promoted form whithin. They didn’t go get someone from another church to fill the spots. And since we should follow what the Bible says, should we not also hire within? and the people in Acts who were being hired within were trained by the group, they fellowshiped together and broke bread together and grew together, and If I remember correctly, the church in Acts was very successful. Also, Just like in the book of Acts, Perry and NS rely heavy on the Holy Spirit.
Let start by saying yes, Tony Morgan is gone from NS, how he was let go, whether fired or however it really doesn’t matter, the fact was, Perry and the leadership at NS actaully did what they preached, and I think that needs to be commended. And another intresting note, prior to working at NS, Tony Morgan worked with another church up north, so I don’t think it is hard to find work. So I think it is healthy to let people go if they don’t agree with the vision, I know it would be very hard for me to let a friend go b/c of that, but I hope that if I am in that sitiuation one day.
You’re coming to the opposite conclusion re: #2. The fact that more people who attend NS have seminary degrees than are on staff is not a positive sign, is it?
I’d say that NS seems afraid of attracting knowledgeable people that might start asking questions. Since when were differences of opinion disdained? (see Prov 27:17).
#3: NS is not a business (although this distinction isn’t always clear – since its pastor behaves like a CEO), it’s a family. And in families inbreeding is unhealthy.
And furthermore, distinctions are important. In Acts, it’s not as if there were lots of people interested in leading the church after the crucifixion and resurrection. Christianity was an illegal religion, and the situation today is very, very different. Also, back to the numbers that seems to always be the NS “trump card.” Health is not the same as growth, and vice versa. Or phrased differently: not all growth (as in mass) is equal. You might see a lot of green plants growing in your neighbor’s yard and think “wow, what a great yard.” But, once you look closer you notice: it’s full of healthy, growing, vibrant … weeds, which are a problem for healthy yards. Lowe’s has an entire section that helps people deal with healthy, growing weeds. I know people who are growing their muscles by using steroids? Does this mean they are healthy?
Does any organization that is growing = an organization that is blessed by God? What if the Mob said: we’re growing. God must be on our side. It is reported that when assassination attempts against Hitler were unsuccessful, he claimed God’s providence.
Vision: NS-ers are always talking about the vision. If you don’t agree with the vision then you should leave. In a sentence or two, can a NS-er state the vision that is so sacrosanct?
Think logically for a second, if someone has been to seminary and knows a great deal, why would he/she come to NS if they weren’t learning anything or growing? And if seminary is so great, wouldn’t also have learned that if they aren’t growing they shouldn’t be attending? So is that saying that Perry is indeed correct saying seminary isn’t worth it if poeple are learning things there, going to NS, and not learning anything, and yet they are staying. They are staying at NS b/c they are in fact learning something.
And I never said they were a business, I will say that they are not inbreeding, because they are growing. As more people of diverse backgrounds come in, they actually have a chance at having a more diverse staff than an inbred staff. also, would you rather work with people whom you knew were working towards the same goals and whom you trust, not some outside whom you barely know?
Also, I never got my answer to what a healthy church is. All u manged to do is tell me what it isn’t. and all you pointed out was that growth wasn’t a qualifier for a healthy church. what about the part I mentioned about life change, people getting saved, the gospel is being preached, marriages healed, and the outreach they do for the community. Those things are happening at NS and yet I get no reply because the only thing you can attack is growth, if you had to admit the other things where growth, then it would mean the church is healthy, which goes against what seems to be the popular belief. Do those things not also make a church healthy? if they don’t, again, I ask what is a healthy church?
Also, In a nut shell, NS exsists to make the name of Jesus famous, One life at a time. Everything they do is centered on Jesus and what he taught and did. And in case someone mis-reads their mission statement and say that Jesus is already famous, it means that they will preach the name of Jesus everywhere, all the time.
Also, going back to Acts, no, they didn’t want to lead the church. but, people stepped up to Gods calling and lead, and the promoted from within the church, there is every indication through the book of acts that the church always promtes inside a church, and isn’t a traditional church where deacons and elders are choosen from the congregation, lead study groups and such the exact same circumstance with the exception of getting paid? I see no difference in deacons and elders verses NS staff. If anything, the deacons and elders of the traditional church teach more than NS staff and have just as much training, Such as self learning and going to church on sundays.
Seth, we can use logic, but let’s start with math.
All it would take to have more people in the congregation with seminary degrees than in leadership (that was Tommy’s claim) is one. So, if 0.0067% of your congregation has a degree, Tommy’s claim is supported. That’s hardly the ringing endorsement that I think you’re interpreting it as.
Im still waiting to hear what a healthy church is?
Im not a math guy, so I’ll stick with my knowledge, that people in the congregation who have seminary degrees would not stick around if they weren’t learning something. am I correct in the assumption? and if I am, that mean Perry is actually teaching something to the people who went to seminary, correct? therefore, the seminary degree wouldn’t matter. and I still see it as ok, because what Perry is teaching lines up with every book I have read, so he must be teaching the scriptures and preaching Jesus, unless we have adifferent Jesus.
And I am still surious what a healthy church is? Clearly yall can call NS unhealthy and I want to know why? Some kind of critiria or list of some sort, or maybe even scripture would be good.
Criteria for a good church? You might try the Westminster Confession and its associated Catechisms. They have worked out pretty well, if it’s fruit you’re looking for.
@Seth
I only got as far as your post on May 5th, and I wanted to comment.
“I would like for you or someone to show me a passage of scripture that talks about going to seminary. Actual verses.”
There aren’t any, they didn’t exist. Neither did guitars, music lessons, amps, stage lighting, conventions (like the greer southern baptist convention, which NS is a part of), sermon series, etc.
Oh wait, there was the whole process of being a Jewish boy… where they studied under a rabbi and memorized the TORAH leading up until their teenage years, and then, if they were to continue into the field of ministry, they observed him and learned from him for many years after… perhaps until he died.
“And as one that goes to NS and knows about them, I know that Perry seems to have an anti-church basis, but did Jesus not have the same thing?”
No. No He didn’t. He called the church his bride. And that’s what we’re talking about here, in this context, the modern Church, the church of the 21st century, the bride of Christ. Adulterous as she can be sometimes, she is the bride of Christ.
Micah, you da man!
I agree with Dr. Duncan. Great points, Micah.
I would like to thank you Micah for actaully answering a question of mine. I think the part abut being against the church was taken out of context, this is the context i meant it in. My reference to Jesus talking about the church was to the Jewish church when he was alive and to the religious people, you know, the pharasees and sanducess not the church or christian followrs after the cross.
Also, can not someone, with the help of the Holy Spirit study the scriptures today and be as good a preacher? When the jewish kids grew up study the torah, they didn’t have the Holy Spirit of today, the one who will remind us of Jesus’ teaching and who will also guide and teach us. Also, I know of not one seminary graduate who has memorized the torah, much less the whole bible, so does that mean they aren’t qualified to be pastors? If you go by those parameter today, no-one os qualified to be a pastor…oh wait, there is a list to go by, 1 Tim 3:1-7…hmmm…it says nothing about seminary or higher learning, yes Paul tell his young protege to bring his books along later on but that also doesn’t equal seminary. Contrary to what you may think, people can be self learned/discipled by other pastors and know just as much as some who has gone through seminary.
And so I want to know, does anyone thing NS is a healthy church? And if not, I would love to know why.
Also Micah, yes, that was how jewsih boys were trained, but if it was so important to be trained so much by people, I think it would have been mentioned in the Bible. I could be wrong on that tho. I think that is why we have the Holy Spirit, that is the one who is to teach us and grow us as individuals, that combined with the Bible should be our main 2 points of learning, all else should be counted as extra. And like I have said, I know pastors who has gone to seminary and also call it cemetary, so either there are hundreds of pastors out there who are completely in the wrong, yet God is blessing their churches or seminary is for some people who need extra help learning and not for other who can learn on their own (with the help of the Holy Spirit) and from mentors. because really, based on what the Jews did, it wasn’t seminary they went to but a mentoring program, study under one raddi, and that is what Perry did, he studied under multiple mentors tho.
@Micah – wow dude!
You’re starting to sound like a candidate for a seminary.
Micah: Very good points. Too bad Seth didn’t really read them.
Seth: You seem to be looking for a verse that says: “Go to seminary.” And since there isn’t one you are arguing (from silence) that it’s not necessary. Well, I keep looking for a verse that says: “Don’t go to seminary.” I can’t find one, so you’d better go.
See how ridiculous this line of thinking is? Arguments from silence are notoriously weak.
If you are preparing for full-time Christian ministry in a position where you’ll be teaching God’s word often, then you better start getting equipped as well as possible. Get a mentor, start reading the entire Bible, memorize portions of it, and get an idea of how complicated reading the Bible can be. All of these things will be promoted in any good seminary. It will give you a breadth of experiences, a depth of knowledge, and you’ll be able to encounter people who are ministering in different areas of the world who can encourage you, guide you, and teach you.
Or you can stay at one place and be force-fed a vision at a church that not only practices but promotes inbreeding.
You seem to want to take the easy way out, which is your prerogative. But that way is the short cut, the easy way out, and long-term you will know that you’re not fully prepared, and eventually your congregation will too. They might not tell you, but they’ll know. You may know how to support the vision, but you’ll rely on wikipedia for knowledge of the Apostles’ Creed, the Institutes, the Westminster confession, the quadrilateral, and the Reformation. I’m confident your mentor hasn’t shared this with you and that these items are never uttered in a NS sermon. Ooops – the last one – the Reformation might be uttered, but he’s not talking about the original one, he’s talking about the new (and improved?) one.
Quick hurry along and look them up on wikipedia so you can respond…
First of all, since there is no verse that tells me to go to seminary, that argument, based on your thinking, could be just as weak. Like I have said before, It is possible to grow relying on the Holy Spirit and being mentored by other people.
Also, all the creed out there aren’t mentioned in Perry’s sermons, why? Because they don’t matter, they aren’t in the Bible. The ideas behind them are, yes, but the actually creeds were written by men and since they aren’t in the Bible Perry doesn’t mention them. Would like for me to send you a list of book that I am currently reading/have read and studied? Since you think I use wikipedia for everything, which, as a former history major I know better then to trust that sight, so sadly for you, I use actual knowledge, history, book, the Bible, and of course, the Holy Spirit. now maybe you need to actually go read the Bible instead of you man written creeds and such. I’m thinking those creeds were written by a man, and for a certain time period since Luther were wanting to invoke the church leadership to go deeper, could it be possible that they could be alittle out of date? Obviously, he didn’t intend for them to be the basis of a reformation so does that make some of these reformation documents old and out dated?
And I am still waiting to hear if NS is a healthy church? Why has no one answered me? Because it would mean that something they don’t agree with was healthy, that seminary degrees aren’t needed. If someone can tell me whether or not NS is a healthy church, and why they say it either way, it would just make my day.
Also, If I waited until I was fully prepared to go into ministry, I would never, most christian leaders don’t ever feel fully prepared to go or fully prepared to plant a church, yes, even guys with seminary degrees, I have heard them utter those exact words. So not being 100% ready or prepared is ok, it helps me to rely more on God and the Holy Spirit than on myself.
“but if it was so important to be trained so much by people, I think it would have been mentioned in the Bible.”
You mentioned 1 Tim 3:1-7 in an earlier post.
This is really interesting. What do you think these peoples’ role in the church was?
I am called to ministry. For a long time held that the Holy Spirit was enough to interpret scripture. Then a friend once said to me
“going to seminary is like going to medical school. If you want to be a doctor and don’t go, it’s very possible that you will help people, even save lives, but you will not know what to do in many cases too, and you will lose lives.”
Do I believe that someone HAS to go to seminary to be a pastor? No. But the message of Christ is so important that anyone seeking to be in full time ministry should desire to have a greater, full understanding of the Bible. Seminary is the best means of this.
And if you’re relying strictly on “the Holy Spirit’s interpretation through you” you are still relying very heavily on your own strength and experience, assuming that other “elders,” wiser people, are not of use. This is very dangerous.
And so further formal, even academic study of the Word should be a desire, a necessary good for the cause of spreading the Gospel.
3 posts in a row is a bit much, and I feel a bit ridiculous, but oh well.
@Seth
on this point: “but if it was so important to be trained so much by people, I think it would have been mentioned in the Bible.”
you might also want to research the relationship between Elijah and Elisha, Paul and Timothy, Paul and the churches in Ephesis, Phillipi, Corinth, Galatia, etc. and you might also want to look at Paul’s returning to the Jerusalem council to go before the original apostles to make sure he was preaching the right thing, because even though he was heavily led by the Holy Spirit, he still sought wise council.
and on this “And I am still waiting to hear if NS is a healthy church?”
I think people around here just find this to be is a funny question because… well… just read Duncan’s posts from the last two months…
Don’t be bashful, Micah. Keep bringing it.
Micah
You do make good points, and I enjoy when people bring it.
No, I want an answer to the question, and I want to know why yall say it isn’t. is it just because they don’t have seminary degrees? if so, I feel that is a very sad and weak answer. And again, I still think someone can go to the Holy Spirit and recieve learning. if you say that seminary is more important than learning from the Holy Spirit that is very dangerous ground to stand on and quite frnakly, I learn alot from the Holy Spirit. I have not yet felt the call to seminary, and am still up in the air about it.
I don’t want to read blog posts, I want to hear it from the man hinself, I want to know why he brings such persecution to NS and Perry, if it is b/c they don’t have seminary degrees, I think that is a weak argument based on everything else they have accomplished. the life changes I have seen, the salvations, the community being impacted, the gospel being preached, marriages being healed, I’m not a theological major or anything but i’m thinking that what they do, is pleasing to God, and I pray hard that one day I will receive all the persecution and criticizim that they are receiving, for that just means I am preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Assuming that I’m the man, Seth should look here for his answer.
@ Seth
“I still think someone can go to the Holy Spirit and recieve learning. if you say that seminary is more important than learning from the Holy Spirit that is very dangerous ground to stand on and quite frnakly, I learn alot from the Holy Spirit.”
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m not saying it’s more important. Neither was Paul in Galatians 2:1-2 when he went back to check his teaching with other believers. He learned a lot from the Holy Spirit too. But he understood the importance of checking himself as well. That’s the sign of a good leader.
Seth: if it’s just the Holy Spirit and the Bible, and not seminary, further education, etc. then I have some advice:
Stop going to church. Stop listening to sermons (from anyone). Stop going to Bible studies. And why would you lead one? Just tell them all they need is the Bible and the Holy Spirit.
Sound like a good plan?
Micah
I do understand the importance of checking myself, I have a pastor uncle whom goes over the BIble study material I perpare each week. Also, my fellow friends who help me out with the Bible tsudy also review my outline. The outline goes through more scrutiny than most churches outlines for a sunday service, why? Because I do what to get it right. I also use multiple books as sources to make sure that what I plan on saying lines up with scripture.
Tommy F.
You make a good point, only problem, you advice goes against scripture. MY thought, doesn;t go against scripture, b/c the Holy Spirit is there to teach us and to guide us and remind us of all things. We are called into action, we are called to be part of the body. So when it comes to church, I think I will stick to the multiple churches I am following, when it comes to Bible studies, we are making an impact on the community, so again, I will keep doing it, as for you advice, I think its very unbiblical. Me saying that learning from the Holy Spirit, is bible based. So I think I will stick with what I am doing, thanks for the really bad advice tho.
I’m glad Duncan at least acknowledged me by my birth name in this post. And it seems that continued comments here accomplish about as much as tommy f. believe pn’s twitters accomplish.
Blake: I’m glad you’re amused. These posts often put a smile on my face, too. Why haven’t you replied to my comments to you? Let’s play.
Seth: My last post is simply a summary of your position about seminary. Take it or leave it, it’s just your own advice.