Upon this rock 62

Noble’s Twitter:

WHAT IF this past 2,000 years of the church was merely the foundation to set up what God REALLY wants to do? That thought pumps me up!

Matthew Perry 16:18:

And I tell you that you are Perry, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

(Yes, Twit, that is an example of adding to the Bible.)

Sorry, Reformer Perry, but that ship sailed two thousand years ago.

62 thoughts on “Upon this rock

  1. Jake Jun 11, 2009 1:12 pm

    Since all of you are “more aware of a logical argument”, could someone please address my genuine question from above?

    Can you please direct me to anywhere where Lamb or Noble is (1) minimizing Lamb’s actions or (2) excusing Lamb’s actions ???

  2. Emily Jun 11, 2009 9:21 pm

    @ Albert and Sara —

    I’m a Biochemist at MIT in Cambridge, MA, so that should tell you:

    (a) that I can think logically and critically
    (b) that I can make and form arguments
    and (c) that I am well out of the NewSpring bubble (>6 months now).

    I spend a great deal of time explaining my faith to others, and it never involves the obnoxious, disrespectful, self-righteous, and un-Christian attitudes that you two display. If you speak to your fellow Christians the way you speak to me, than how in the world do you speak to non-Christians? Perhaps with a little maturity and a little distance, you’ll realize the error of your ways.

  3. Revolution Member Jun 11, 2009 9:35 pm

    Jake Writes: Can you please direct me to anywhere where Lamb or Noble is (1) minimizing Lamb’s actions or (2) excusing Lamb’s actions ???

    Since none of the self-righteous posters here will answer you I will ..

    The answer is NO .. because there’s no one saying that anywhere including GL and PN .. period .. In fact, just the opposite is being said.

    G. Wood
    Revolution Church volunteer

  4. Tommy F Jun 11, 2009 9:57 pm

    Emily:

    Can you please direct us to the relevant comments where Albert and/or Sara exhibit: “obnoxious, disrespectful, self-righteous, and un-Christian attitudes”?

    I looked and didn’t find any. Perhaps I missed them.

    Thanks

  5. Albert Jun 11, 2009 10:15 pm

    @ Emily

    Again, you haven’t really read our posts.

    Like Tommy has said, neither Sara nor I have been in any way been disrespectful (if I have, I apologize). We have not resorted to name-calling and unfounded accusations like you so quickly have. I have simply challenged you not to attack people for the things they write and have encouraged you to practice your critical thinking and logically argumentative skills.

    On your note about speaking to non-believers. I don’t think we’re talking about unbelievers here. When Duncan and the commentators on here write comments, they assume for the most part that they are speaking to fellow believers. That’s the reason for most of the criticism in each of the blog posts–one christian caring enough to speak out against something they see as harmful to the Body of Christ.

    Perhaps you and I have different definitions of the word “obnoxious,” but I haven’t seen JDuncan display any obnoxious-ness.

  6. Emily Jun 11, 2009 10:32 pm

    “I have simply challenged you not to attack people for the things they write” — picked that up from your bud, Dr. Duncan.

    Do you have a twitter, Albert? I’d really like to misinterpret each tweet, then take great offense and blog about it. I’ll disguise my personal attacks as “caring”. I’ll find a posse of impressionable kids to follow me and defend my every move. It’ll be awesome.

  7. Albert Jun 11, 2009 10:44 pm

    No, sorry. No twitter. I’m sure no one cares to know what I’m doing every second of the day. Trust me, I’m not that interesting.

    To address your “impressionable” accusations again…I really don’t think I’m that impressionable. I don’t watch television, I find NPR more entertaining than MTV, I prefer music by artists you’ve never heard of rather than the top 40, and I like to read old hymnals and St. Augustine’s “Confessions” books…just for fun. I really wouldn’t call myself impressionable or easily swayed by outside influences.

  8. Sophie Jun 12, 2009 12:12 am

    i’ll vouch for albert on this one. he’s an old man trapped in a 21 year-olds body.

  9. Sara Crocker Jun 12, 2009 8:39 am

    @ Emily

    You can name drop your school all you day long but you haven’t given any logical arguments or defended your positions well (at all) on this site. Talk is cheap.

    And let me get this straight: Just because you are having trouble doing anything more on this blog than telling your own personal salvation story (which is great by the way), that makes me “obnoxious and self-righteous.” Really?

  10. Emily Jun 13, 2009 9:11 am

    @ Sara –

    You’re right. You guys have amazing debate skills. You’ve memorized two tricks that you use over and over, ad nauseum.

    (1) The obnoxious, fake sincerity: “I can’t find an instance of that. Can you point it out to me?”
    (2) The condescending “you can’t read defense”: “Well, obviously, you haven’t read that quote/entry/comment/twitter/blah blah blahhhh because there is only one correct interpretation – MINE.”

    It’s cute that you guys can play games in this blog. It must be nice. Unfortunately, I don’t have that luxury. Your hero, JDuncan, constantly tears down Perry Noble but uses word play to disguise it as “caring”. For me, the problem is:
    (1) if you attack the man, call him a “false prophet”, etc. you
    (2) attack and diminish the incredible work of NewSpring church (the numbers don’t mean anything post really exemplifies that), which
    (3) calls my salvation as well as my intelligence into question.

    My salvation story is great? Too bad it’s fake and tainted since it happened at NewSpring.

    I know your reply is going to be, “Obviously you didn’t read my blah blah blah blah. I never said blah blah blah blah. Can you point out an example?”. Save your energy for tearing down other believers who post on this blog and have an emotional response to the things said here.

    My wish for you, Sara, is that you could grasp why someone would have an emotional response, then show them a tiny bit of compassion and respect, which likely doesn’t involve quoting Rush Limbaugh.

  11. Sara Crocker Jun 13, 2009 10:06 am

    @ Emily

    Wow. Touchy, are we? Let me guess, you watch MSNBC?

  12. Albert Jun 13, 2009 1:04 pm

    @ Emily

    I think you aren’t giving your opposition their due credit. I honestly don’t think that JDuncan or anyone else who comments on this blog truly wants to diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.

    They do, however, wish to see the wrongs and inconsistencies being practiced there brought to attention with the hopes of those problems being fixed.

    I think that the fact that Duncan even runs this blog shows how deeply he cares for the church–be it members in his or those at Newspring. To quote Derek Webb, “You cannot care for me with no regard for her. If you love me you will love the church.”

  13. James Duncan Jun 13, 2009 5:03 pm

    Emily,

    As good as you think my debate skill are, yours are even better.

    “I’ll ignore everything you say and just assert that you’re wrong.”

    Brilliant. You win.

  14. KeithO Jun 14, 2009 4:44 pm

    Following along with posts from Emily and Ashley, it appears a new trend in defense of NS has emerged. It goes “If it weren’t for Perry Noble (or NS) I would never have come to Jesus.” So the end does justify the means? And who can argue with such success? Is the number of converts now the new measure of success, no matter what is being taught after they join the fold?

    Part of being a disciple is to ask questions, learn how to live, search the scriptures, think and decide and maybe even be prepared to move on if the teaching is not biblically based or sound.

    It’s OK to move on if you need to. It’s not OK to just accept teaching that has not past biblical scrutiny.

  15. JT Jun 14, 2009 8:33 pm

    Albert said, “I honestly don’t think that JDuncan or anyone else who comments on this blog truly wants to diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.”

    I’m sorry. I must have missed the postings on Pajama Pages that applaud the ministry of NewSpring.

  16. Sophie Jun 14, 2009 10:34 pm

    JT- I think that’s fair. I certainly wouldn’t say that NewSpring’s ministry is applauded here. But I would have I do think that it is respected and not cheapened.

  17. Sophie Jun 14, 2009 10:35 pm

    Haha meant to write:
    “But I do think that it is respected (to a degree) and not cheapened.”

  18. Albert Jun 14, 2009 11:53 pm

    @ JT

    Yes, they seem to be few and far between. But if you followed closely or perhaps knew Duncan personally, your answer would be different.

  19. Tommy F. Jun 15, 2009 12:27 am

    KeithO: NS defenders always resort to “the ends justify the means” argument. It varies between personal stories or headcounts or baptisms or “don’t you know NS is reaching lots of people?”, etc., but most NS posts draw on it.

    The result and their advice is always the same: God is blessing NS with growth. Leave NS alone.

    This accomplishes at least two things for them:
    1) It’s a real timesaver (much easier to quote Easter attendance than to engage in dialogue).
    2) It’s a diversion from the real issue(s) at hand (truth, doctrine, correct teaching).

    Sadly, they don’t realize that we’d all be better off engaging the issues, rather than being diverted.

    But, their defense has a fatal flaw that NS-ers never seem to grasp: It proves nothing. It also raises 2 questions (at least): Should we also view the Mormon faith (with their massive growth) as being blessed by God? And, is the reverse true: if attendance dips one month, should we see it as a lack of blessing from God?

  20. James Duncan Jun 15, 2009 6:53 am

    JT,

    If you’re looking for blogs that applaud the ministry of Perry Noble and NewSpring, read Perry Noble’s. There really isn’t anything I can add to his own praise, so I’d look weak and silly in comparison to him.

    You wouldn’t want me to look like that, would you?

  21. KeithO Jun 15, 2009 8:48 am

    TommyF: Using NS standards, Jeremiah, with no converts had a very unsuccessful ministry.

  22. Emily Jun 15, 2009 1:08 pm

    @ Tommy F

    You are so right. The thousands of us that were saved at NewSpring would be better off burning in hell for eternity. I don’t think the end justifies the means in any situation, but to you guys, the end means NOTHING and the means only deserve ridicule. When someone shares their testimony, they’re attempting to show you that “the end” (their salvation) is personal and meaningful to them. Wouldn’t you feel defensive if you felt something very important to you (like, let’s say.. where you’re going to spend eternity) was being attacked?

    You’re looking for “truth, doctrine, correct teaching”? And you’re getting that HERE? Making judgments on someone’s character based on a tweet is getting you closer to the truth of the gospel? Really?

    (I know, I know JDuncan: “I never said Perry Noble’s childish, corrupt heart would overtake his bad rules and cause him to fall. I simply stated that, based on my interpretation of his tweets, that he has a childish heart. I also judged that he has bad rules. If one has a childish heart, it will always overtake bad rules, but I never said that thing you said I said. Can’t you read?” Honestly, if I could doubt your sincerity, I would say this blog is a “Devil’s Advocate” teaching tool because the word play is so outrageous.)

    Also, I’d really love to know where this magical, perfect church is that preaches the 100% correct interpretation in the 100% correct way. Is it the church of James Duncan?

    This blog is incredibly divisive. It seems like you guys see huge divisions based on little things (@ Sara), and I don’t see how that is serving you well.

  23. JT Jun 15, 2009 9:12 pm

    JDunc,

    No, I don’t expect you to sing Noble’s praises on your blog. I think you’ve made it clear that that is not your ambition.

    But Albert claimed that you do not want to “diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.”

    He has since clarified that if I followed closely (which I do), or knew you personally (which I don’t), then I’d see your applause for the ministry of NewSpring.

    Do you agree with Albert’s claim about your applause for NewSpring?

  24. Albert Jun 15, 2009 9:38 pm

    Before JDuncan responds, let me say that I in no way, shape, or form speak for him. I simple said what I thought and believed to be true….which could be false.

  25. James Duncan Jun 16, 2009 12:54 am

    JT, fair question.

    I applauded the fact that they gave houses to single moms, though I did not applaud the way that they did it.

    I think you can also find nice words about the media ministry of NewSpring and their high level of professionalism.

    I’ve also said nice things about various unnamed member/ministers or volunteers at NewSpring, many of whom I have observed to have a passionate heart for Christ and are folks whom I count as my friends.

    There are a few specific instances of praise, though I’d say that on the whole this is not a blog you’d turn to if you were looking for applause.

    I hope I do not diminish the work of the church, though, if we’re being serious, that work should really be considered the work of the Holy Spirit. We go through this every other week or so when someone new comes in and offers their personal testimony as proof that NS and PN are wonderful. I and no one who has not been faking it have never discounted, doubted or diminished those stories.

    What I do try to diminish are the weak or false arguments, and the flawed practices that come from them, that I see PN and others making.

  26. JT Jun 16, 2009 6:46 am

    Thanks for the reply. I couldn’t agree more with your statement that the work is really that of the Holy Spirit.

  27. Seth Jun 18, 2009 1:02 am

    Duncan

    I was reading through the sermon on the mount and noticed something interesting Jesus said

    Matthew 5:16

    “In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”

    I think that may be why they gave houses away the way they did, and then sang praises to God after each house was given away.

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