Upon this rock
Posted: June 10th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Noble, Reformation, Twitter | 62 Comments »Noble’s Twitter:
WHAT IF this past 2,000 years of the church was merely the foundation to set up what God REALLY wants to do? That thought pumps me up!
And I tell you that you are Perry, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
(Yes, Twit, that is an example of adding to the Bible.)
Sorry, Reformer Perry, but that ship sailed two thousand years ago.
Similar Posts:
- Going beyond ridicule
- If only Paul had used Twitter
- Perceptive points on parsing Pastor Perry
- Don’t take my word, take Noble’s: Reformation is coming
- We retort. You decide.
I was just wondering if you:
a. Know Perry Noble personally?
b. Go to or have gone to NewSpring Church?
c. Live in the Anderson, SC area?
d. Have confronted Perry in person with the information that you post to your blog?
Just trying to get a handle on the situation.
I stumbled upon this blog yesterday after I read the story about Gary Lamb on Perry’s blog. I didn’t know who Gary was, so I googled his name and affair and was directed here.
I literally could not stop thinking about this site after I saw it yesterday. I’m not sure who even runs it, but I feel led to say something to that person or that group of people.
First, I absolutely commend you for sticking up for what you believe in. Obviously, in this case, you believe that Perry and others could be described as false teachers, often incapable of correctly interpreting and preaching the gospel. I also commend you for challenging sermons or sermon portions that you see to be, at best, a stretch of interpretation, and, at worst, heresy.
That being said, I need to be honest with you. I have attended church my entire life, but I never truly understood or appreciated who Jesus Christ was until two years ago during my sophomore year of college. That year, at NewSpring, I was finally saved, baptized, and began living daily for Christ. I now understand conviction, repentance, obedience, and, most importantly, the utterly amazing sacrifice that Jesus made for all of us by leaving a perfect HEAVEN, coming to live on Earth, and dying a horrible, painful death on the cross.
I don’t always agree with Perry. Sometimes I think he is over the top and sometimes I cringe at the things he says. But he is who he is, and I can’t condemn him for that because Christ used his over the top preaching to get my attention and save me from hell. Christ continues to use Perry’s sermons to stretch and challenge me into spending more time daily with Him reading my Bible, honoring Him with my money, and constantly trusting Him with daily decisions. I am, literally, LIVING proof that God is using Perry to reach people and bring them into a personal relationship with Christ.
I’m not “drinking the NewSpring koolaid.” I know everyone on staff there is imperfect and they make mistakes. I don’t worship NewSpring. I worship Jesus. Gary Lamb’s mistake is just more proof that you should never put your trust in any person but Christ. If he were my pastor, I would be admittedly disappointed. I am anyway. But honestly, I am more disappointed to read this blog.
I just want to encourage you to take a serious look at this blog. Ask yourself, honestly, what you are accomplishing by it. God is using Perry to reach people for Jesus, end of story. Why are you, a fellow Christian, trying to stand in the way of that?
I am not asking you to change your beliefs about Perry’s style or personality, and I’m not asking you to stop challenging him when you think he is teaching out of context. He, and all pastors, need people to keep them in check. But perhaps you might be able to find a better way to live out those beliefs than running a blog that is dedicated to publically slamming him and others daily. I don’t mean to sound pretentious, but I find your critique of Perry’s twitter posts to be a tragically misguided use of your obvious talent for writing and passion for Jesus.
I won’t be back to this website, and not because I disagree with everything you say. I find some valid and thought-provoking points among your posts. I just can’t respect the way you present them. I know, without an ounce of doubt, that Jesus used Perry’s teaching to bring me into a personal and real relationship with Him. Imperfect, loud, spontaneous, obnoxious, vulgar, passionate Perry Noble.
I have to wonder who Jesus is using this blog to reach.
Ashley
where can i get a copy of this unique bible??? NS bookstore?
Well, honestly…isn’t that what Protestantism is all about? What is Perry saying that Luther, Calvin, or any other Protestant starting their own church hasn’t said before? That everything that came before was either false or preparation and they have the truth.
I don’t see how he’s anything but garden-variety Protestant saying what Protestants say, and have said for 500 years.
Mark,
No. The Reformers were not trying to do something new; they were trying to fix all the new things the church had added to the foundation that Jesus laid.
Perry’s arrogance in assuming that all of church history so far was just a set up for now–that God has been holding something back–is flat-out wrong and dangerous.
The more I think about what he said, especially the “REALLY”, the more astonished I am.
Dude,
You need to get a life… Is this what you do all the time?
Elena knew Gary Lamb personally!
Elena Went to Revolution
Elena lived in the Canton area
Just trying to get a handle on the situation!!!!
Wow .. Ashley has posted almost word for word exactly my experience and how I feel. In no way could I have expressed it better.
In my case just replace the words Perry & NewSpring with Gary and Revolution.
G. Wood
Revolution Church volunteer
James
I sure am glad that some of the religous pioneers of the past were arrogant enough to think that perhaps greater things were yet to come. What was that arrogant John Wesley and Billy Graham thinking anyway?
The leadership at Newspring was arrogant enough to think they could facilitate 1000′s of people would give their lives to Christ. What were they thinking? I’ve heard alot of people pray to accept Christ and not one time have I heard any of them pray to Perry.
Your assumption, James, that the last 2000 years isn’t a foundation is terribly presumptious. If Christ doesn’t come back for another 10,000 years would it then be fair to say that the first 2000 years was the foundation????
What new thing has God been keeping from us until now? Perry’s message is that God has been hiding something from us and we are about to see what he “REALLY” wanted to do.
Upon such foundations are heresies built.
James…I’m still waiting for an answer to my question above.
Chris,
1) No
2) Yes and no
3) Yes
4) Not for lack of trying
Perhaps you could reciprocate with an explanation of why your questions are important.
Also you might want to read this.
In response to Ashley and to Dr. James Duncan:
I stumbled across this blog recently as well, and the content has literally brought me to tears. I’ve attempted to construct a comment but have been unable to find the right words that will have the right impact. Ashley did a great job communicating her thoughts.
I went to a traditional church regularly with a friend when I was in elementary school, but I stopped going when we started attending different schools and our friendship became strained. Unfortunately, the relationship that kept me in church was the one with my friend. At that time, I had no relationship with Jesus Christ, and church seemed plagued with internal politics and in-fighting, external appearances and gossiping.
In high school, I became very interested in science, and I gradually stopped believing in God completely. During my senior year at Clemson University, my roommate, who was heavily into the party scene, decided that she wanted to let go of that life. She asked me to come with her to church, and I reluctantly agreed to go to support her. I went to my first NewSpring service with a cold heart. With each sermon, my heart warmed until I could hear the knocking and answer!
My life looks nothing like it did a year ago. I thought I was so smart and happy and free believing in nothing, but it’s clear to me now that something was really missing in my life. I would never have met Jesus without Perry Noble and NewSpring church. They know how to reach lost people like me.
I graduated from Clemson in December and was blessed with an amazing job in Boston, MA. I’ve plugged into a local church (nondenom, evangelical, contemporary in the style of NewSpring) and keep up with NewSpring online. This time, my relationship with Jesus Christ – and not the one with my roommate – keeps me involved in church and excited for Sundays!
I share my testimony and add it to Ashley’s. NewSpring helped my roommate clean up her life. NewSpring brought me back to church when I had closed my heart and mind to it completely. And from what I’ve seen and heard and experienced – my story, my roommate’s story, Ashley’s story are not unique.
I know NewSpring’s purpose is to reach people for Jesus. I know Perry Noble’s teaching – in all its imperfection – involves giving us ways to apply scripture to our daily lives. What I don’t know and can’t comprehend, is why this blog exists?
As Christians, it’s our call to reach others for Jesus. As Perry says, “We’re not called to condemn the world; we’re called to reach the world!”. As far as I can tell, this blog calls others to hate and to share hatred and to tear down other believers. This blog calls others to revel in the downfall of one church leader and to dream and hope for the downfall of another.
And that brings me to tears.
Emily, Ashley, and Joe,
Your posts, while completely valid (except Joe’s), are nothing new to this blog. I sympathize with your positions because I myself have questioned the intentions of this blog many times.
However, I keep coming around to the conclusion that the things written here (posts and comments) are for the best. By questioning and confronting issues and topics that would otherwise not be addressed, Dr. Duncan is doing both himself and those who agree with him as well as Newspring members a service.
Let me explain. By confronting NS on the issues that Duncan does not agree with, he is expressing his concern and strengthening his beliefs and faith in Christ. On the other hand, NS’ers who participate in this blog and actively defend their beliefs and positions get practice at defending their faith. This is especially important for the NS side because they are met with so little true opposition (this is because NS commands such a huge margin of the Christian community in the upstate).
So, I think that it would be great if posts like the ones you have written are swallowed and replaced with valid, effective arguments. Don’t just condemn Duncan for posting things contrary to what NS teaches, explore why and ask questions in the comment boxes. If you actively participate, your apologetics and argument skills will be improved.
Albert —
I appreciate your post, but I can’t, won’t, and will never support your viewpoint that the things written here are “for the best”. I see this blog doing nothing to reach others for Christ as we are called to do (and not just by NewSpring). If you can really explain to me how tearing down, analyzing, and criticizing each and every twitter from Perry Noble is even remotely relevant, I’d appreciate it. This blog has gone far, far past “confronting NS” on issues/topics relating to interpretation of scripture, sermon presentation, etc. If you can’t see that, Albert, than I fear that you’re drinking the Duncan Kool-Aid…
@ Emily
That’s completely fine. You don’t have to necessarily agree with what is being posted. That’s the nature of a blog after all. What I was suggesting was to actively participate in the blog by asking questions and offering opposing viewpoints-in light of your disagreement. In that manner (rather than just expressing personal opinions about the blog, it’s author, and commentators), more will be done to help people understand their own beliefs and views. I speak from experience. There have been times when I haven’t agreed with what Duncan has written. But, rather than just stating the fact that I didn’t like it, I asked him questions and through open discussion, found that either A) My viewpoint stayed the same and was strengthened, or B) Was able to see the point being made in a new perspective which changed my view on the subject.
As for the “tearing down, analyzing, and criticizing . . .” remark, I don’t really see it as “tearing down”. As I have said before, I see it as challenging members to examine the things they are being taught from a different, non-NS perspective–something that members of any church needs from time to time.
I hope that explains my viewpoint…
Wow, what a beautiful waste of time this website is! How many people have been led to Christ from these morsels of knowledge and encouragement? One two part question mr Duncan: Are you saved? Do you believe Perry is saved? These answers should clear some things up…
I was just wondering….it’s my life’s mission to wonder.
John,
I’m glad you recognize beauty when you find it.
If it really is necessary to ask, yes and yes.
Emily,
Albert has given you some good advice, but you wrote, “This blog calls others to revel in the downfall of one church leader and to dream and hope for the downfall of another.”
In case someone one day notes that this was not disputed, let me dispute it here. Let it be noted that no-one on this blog is reveling in Lamb’s downfall, and no-one is hoping for Noble’s downfall. Your statements are very incorrect.
You may not have noticed, but we’ve been talking about ways to prevent Perry’s and others’ downfall.
Duncan, at least call it what it is. What you have been doing is criticizing one man’s personal conviction of the boundaries he has set in place to help hold his integrity intact (Perry) and then gossip and speculate on the motives and actions of another man (Gary) and group of men (leadership of Revolution) during an extremely difficult time.
I can only imagine what Gary’s children would think if the google their dad’s name one day and stumble across this blog. How truly sad that you have contributed so much time to this matter.
I’m not sure what you want me to be calling what, Jake.
I’ve called Perry’s rules legalism, because even Perry says that’s what they are. If you don’t like that label, take it up with him.
I have not speculated on Lamb’s motives (do they even matter?). I’ve criticized his lack of public apology to Elena. That’s an observable behavior by Lamb and the Revolution leadership.
Lamb made a public statement, so I don’t know how you call talking about that gossip. We have not gone beyond any details that were not either in that statement or publicly available on his, Noble’s or Revolution’s websites. I have actually been deleting comments that did go beyond that and could be classified as gossip.
@ Jake
I think if Lamb’s children google his name, they will be much more upset when they read his own blog post about cheating on their mother. This blog is a discussion of the methods and actions of these very public leaders. These men put their opinions and personal lives on the internet. It’s fair game.
James
I’ve read the original twitter post 100 times, used my secret decoder ring, etc, and no where do I see where Perry says “God is holding out on us.” “The last 2000 years don’t matter.” Only James Duncan and Evil Kinevil could make that jump.
“Albert has given you some good advice,”
Actually, no. Albert tried to convince me this blog was doing some sort of great work in presenting the “other side” and that I should defend my beliefs on this blog. I have many objections to that argument, the major one being I SHOULDN’T HAVE TO DEFEND MY BELIEFS TO OTHER BELIEVERS
(1) I SHOULDN’T HAVE TO DEFEND MY BELIEFS TO OTHER BELIEVERS. We’re on (or should be) the same side here.
(2) CHRISTIAN IN-FIGHTING DISCOURAGES NON-BELIEVERS. I know. It kept me out of church for many years.
(3) CHRISTIAN IN-FIGHTING DISTRACTS US FROM WHAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. We should all be working toward the common goal of reaching others for Jesus. That is what we are called to do, and this blog, in my eyes, is doing the opposite.
(4) YOU ARE IN A POSITION OF AUTHORITY. Your students go online to check their grades, then have the opportunity to read your hate-filled blog. Obviously, impressionable students like Albert are greatly affected by your words.
“but you wrote, ‘This blog calls others to revel in the downfall of one church leader and to dream and hope for the downfall of another.’”
Since you can always interpret Perry Noble’s heart through his blog posts and twitters, I will take the same liberty. Dr. Duncan, you were practically giddy while reporting the fall of Gary Lamb. I can tell your fingers flew across the keyboard with glee as you typed responses.
“You may not have noticed, but we’ve been talking about ways to prevent Perry’s and others’ downfall.”
Really? Do you read your own blog? You blamed Perry Noble for Gary Lamb’s sin (“How Perry Noble’s legalism failed Gary Lamb”) and called for Perry Noble’s apology (“Lamb didn’t apologize to her. Noble didn’t either.”). You made claim that Perry and Lamb have childish, corrupt hearts (“Perry Noble’s counseling of Lamb didn’t help him because it didn’t deal with his selfish and childish heart. A bad heart will always overcome good rules.”).
Duncan, my issue is that these blog posts are not “helpful”. If you are indeed deleting “gossipy” comments, then that should be commended. However, you are making assumptions (and in turn those assumptions help ‘solidify’ your position) such as the fact that Elena has not requested that Gary and the leadership keep her out of the “limelight” beyond naming her. Perhaps you could extend that further by asking yourself if your blog posts glorify Christ before you hit “publish”.
I have read some of your past posts, and you pose some very thought provoking points and “arguments”. But this line of posts that seem to attack the personal integrity of people is just out of line, and do not glorify God.
@Sara I think that Gary and Deanna will deal with their children in the best way possible considering the devastating circumstances they are facing. And the leadership of Revolution church should be COMMENDED for their support. What is sad is that people assume that if someone makes a public statement, then it is everyone else’s right to attack them. Just because we have the freedom of speech doesn’t mean we shouldn’t show some restraint.
I am curious if anyone here has listened to the message in it’s entirety that was delivered at Revolution on Sunday (the podcast is available on their website). I listened 2 days ago (not being from the area) and I was very impressed with how the leadership has handled everything. And I would say that they are not trying to minimize anything… I’m interested in your thoughts.
@ Emily
You said:
“Your students go online to check their grades, then have the opportunity to read your hate-filled blog. Obviously, impressionable students like Albert are greatly affected by your words.”
I am one of Dr. Duncan’s students and we are no more impressionable than the thousands (you being one) who relish every word that comes out of the mouth of Perry Noble and his clan. Please give us more respect than thinking Dr. Duncan has brainwashed us. If anything, he has given us something to think about. He allows us to look at this movement (the mega church and superstar pastors with Hollywood style “personal assistants”) through a different perspective.
And I resent you saying this site is “hate-filled.” Just yesterday my favorite political commentator and entertainer, Rush Limbaugh, said that when people don’t like the truth, they label it as hate speech. Instead of accepting it, they dismiss it as hate speech. Sounds like you may be doing just that.
@ Sara –
Why would I give you and your fellow students more respect than you give me and my fellow NewSpring supporters?
@Sara- See, this is an area in which I agree with Duncan…on the idea of “personal assistants”. I have actually talked with several staff in “larger” churches and different churches handle them differently.
Many use the model of an executive assistant (which I feel is the appropriate…healthy example). In this model, the assistant manages much of the M-F goings on. But others do follow more of the “Hollywood” model of even “catering” to every need (please don’t make any Lamb references here–that is not my inference) on Sunday mornings as well.
This is merely my opinion…but I believe that ANY pastor can handle themselves on Sunday morning. The idea of personal assistants then does lend itself to some ego issues (again, only my opinion). But I certainly see the need for a role such as an executive assistant.
I am not one of Dr. Duncan’s students, in fact, I don’t even know the man, but I do agree with him which is what brought me here.
Many of Lamb’s apologists can’t offer anything tangible or concrete so they have to attack and say that Duncan’s students are brainwashed? Give us a break, please.
If my very own pastor did what Lamb has done and then he and the other pastor did the PR that Lamb and Noble have done/are doing, I would be saying the exact same things because ladies and gentleman, boys and girls, children of all ages, now more than ever we must have spiritual integrity, spiritual morality and spiritual sexuality in the pulpit from our church leaders.
There is absolutely NO excuse whatsoever for Lamb’s affair. Call it what it is, it IS and remains and will forever be SIN!
Okay, maybe someone can help me out here. Because perhaps I have missed a blog post or a message or something.
Can you please direct me to anywhere where Lamb or Noble is (1) minimizing Lamb’s actions or (2) excusing Lamb’s actions ???
Emily:
We do not disrespect you, we just make better arguments than you, we state our cases, and you can’t defend your own. So, you get frustrated and label it hate speech. Also: your pastor disrespects those of us who attend traditional church from the stage constantly. If you are concerned about respecting people, talk to your pastor.
@ Emily
Again, the personal attacks and personal opinions you have expressed are not helping your case one bit. As I said before (clearly you didn’t read my posts), I DO NOT agree with everything Duncan writes. I have even been on your side a time or two when I questioned the intentions of this blog.
However, I put my personal feelings aside and looked at the work objectively and have decided to participate by expressing my feelings about the topics at hand–not what I feel about the author or NS members.
I suggest you do likewise.
“I SHOULDN’T HAVE TO DEFEND MY BELIEFS TO OTHER BELIEVERS” Why shouldn’t you have to defend your beliefs? If you don’t (if any Christians didn’t), then we would never win anyone to Christ. By defending and explaining personal beliefs, we let others see why we believe the things we do. For the unbeliever, this could lead them to view Christians more favorably and possibly lead to a conversion. As I said before, explain and defend, don’t just tell opposition to “go away” like so many of your fellow members have.
Also, I wouldn’t really call myself impressionable…just more aware of a logical argument than you are.
Since all of you are “more aware of a logical argument”, could someone please address my genuine question from above?
Can you please direct me to anywhere where Lamb or Noble is (1) minimizing Lamb’s actions or (2) excusing Lamb’s actions ???
@ Albert and Sara —
I’m a Biochemist at MIT in Cambridge, MA, so that should tell you:
(a) that I can think logically and critically
(b) that I can make and form arguments
and (c) that I am well out of the NewSpring bubble (>6 months now).
I spend a great deal of time explaining my faith to others, and it never involves the obnoxious, disrespectful, self-righteous, and un-Christian attitudes that you two display. If you speak to your fellow Christians the way you speak to me, than how in the world do you speak to non-Christians? Perhaps with a little maturity and a little distance, you’ll realize the error of your ways.
Jake Writes: Can you please direct me to anywhere where Lamb or Noble is (1) minimizing Lamb’s actions or (2) excusing Lamb’s actions ???
Since none of the self-righteous posters here will answer you I will ..
The answer is NO .. because there’s no one saying that anywhere including GL and PN .. period .. In fact, just the opposite is being said.
G. Wood
Revolution Church volunteer
Emily:
Can you please direct us to the relevant comments where Albert and/or Sara exhibit: “obnoxious, disrespectful, self-righteous, and un-Christian attitudes”?
I looked and didn’t find any. Perhaps I missed them.
Thanks
@ Emily
Again, you haven’t really read our posts.
Like Tommy has said, neither Sara nor I have been in any way been disrespectful (if I have, I apologize). We have not resorted to name-calling and unfounded accusations like you so quickly have. I have simply challenged you not to attack people for the things they write and have encouraged you to practice your critical thinking and logically argumentative skills.
On your note about speaking to non-believers. I don’t think we’re talking about unbelievers here. When Duncan and the commentators on here write comments, they assume for the most part that they are speaking to fellow believers. That’s the reason for most of the criticism in each of the blog posts–one christian caring enough to speak out against something they see as harmful to the Body of Christ.
Perhaps you and I have different definitions of the word “obnoxious,” but I haven’t seen JDuncan display any obnoxious-ness.
“I have simply challenged you not to attack people for the things they write” — picked that up from your bud, Dr. Duncan.
Do you have a twitter, Albert? I’d really like to misinterpret each tweet, then take great offense and blog about it. I’ll disguise my personal attacks as “caring”. I’ll find a posse of impressionable kids to follow me and defend my every move. It’ll be awesome.
No, sorry. No twitter. I’m sure no one cares to know what I’m doing every second of the day. Trust me, I’m not that interesting.
To address your “impressionable” accusations again…I really don’t think I’m that impressionable. I don’t watch television, I find NPR more entertaining than MTV, I prefer music by artists you’ve never heard of rather than the top 40, and I like to read old hymnals and St. Augustine’s “Confessions” books…just for fun. I really wouldn’t call myself impressionable or easily swayed by outside influences.
i’ll vouch for albert on this one. he’s an old man trapped in a 21 year-olds body.
Thanks, Soph.
=)
@ Emily
You can name drop your school all you day long but you haven’t given any logical arguments or defended your positions well (at all) on this site. Talk is cheap.
And let me get this straight: Just because you are having trouble doing anything more on this blog than telling your own personal salvation story (which is great by the way), that makes me “obnoxious and self-righteous.” Really?
@ Sara -
You’re right. You guys have amazing debate skills. You’ve memorized two tricks that you use over and over, ad nauseum.
(1) The obnoxious, fake sincerity: “I can’t find an instance of that. Can you point it out to me?”
(2) The condescending “you can’t read defense”: “Well, obviously, you haven’t read that quote/entry/comment/twitter/blah blah blahhhh because there is only one correct interpretation – MINE.”
It’s cute that you guys can play games in this blog. It must be nice. Unfortunately, I don’t have that luxury. Your hero, JDuncan, constantly tears down Perry Noble but uses word play to disguise it as “caring”. For me, the problem is:
(1) if you attack the man, call him a “false prophet”, etc. you
(2) attack and diminish the incredible work of NewSpring church (the numbers don’t mean anything post really exemplifies that), which
(3) calls my salvation as well as my intelligence into question.
My salvation story is great? Too bad it’s fake and tainted since it happened at NewSpring.
I know your reply is going to be, “Obviously you didn’t read my blah blah blah blah. I never said blah blah blah blah. Can you point out an example?”. Save your energy for tearing down other believers who post on this blog and have an emotional response to the things said here.
My wish for you, Sara, is that you could grasp why someone would have an emotional response, then show them a tiny bit of compassion and respect, which likely doesn’t involve quoting Rush Limbaugh.
@ Emily
Wow. Touchy, are we? Let me guess, you watch MSNBC?
@ Emily
I think you aren’t giving your opposition their due credit. I honestly don’t think that JDuncan or anyone else who comments on this blog truly wants to diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.
They do, however, wish to see the wrongs and inconsistencies being practiced there brought to attention with the hopes of those problems being fixed.
I think that the fact that Duncan even runs this blog shows how deeply he cares for the church–be it members in his or those at Newspring. To quote Derek Webb, “You cannot care for me with no regard for her. If you love me you will love the church.”
Emily,
As good as you think my debate skill are, yours are even better.
“I’ll ignore everything you say and just assert that you’re wrong.”
Brilliant. You win.
Following along with posts from Emily and Ashley, it appears a new trend in defense of NS has emerged. It goes “If it weren’t for Perry Noble (or NS) I would never have come to Jesus.” So the end does justify the means? And who can argue with such success? Is the number of converts now the new measure of success, no matter what is being taught after they join the fold?
Part of being a disciple is to ask questions, learn how to live, search the scriptures, think and decide and maybe even be prepared to move on if the teaching is not biblically based or sound.
It’s OK to move on if you need to. It’s not OK to just accept teaching that has not past biblical scrutiny.
Albert said, “I honestly don’t think that JDuncan or anyone else who comments on this blog truly wants to diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.”
I’m sorry. I must have missed the postings on Pajama Pages that applaud the ministry of NewSpring.
JT- I think that’s fair. I certainly wouldn’t say that NewSpring’s ministry is applauded here. But I would have I do think that it is respected and not cheapened.
Haha meant to write:
“But I do think that it is respected (to a degree) and not cheapened.”
@ JT
Yes, they seem to be few and far between. But if you followed closely or perhaps knew Duncan personally, your answer would be different.
KeithO: NS defenders always resort to “the ends justify the means” argument. It varies between personal stories or headcounts or baptisms or “don’t you know NS is reaching lots of people?”, etc., but most NS posts draw on it.
The result and their advice is always the same: God is blessing NS with growth. Leave NS alone.
This accomplishes at least two things for them:
1) It’s a real timesaver (much easier to quote Easter attendance than to engage in dialogue).
2) It’s a diversion from the real issue(s) at hand (truth, doctrine, correct teaching).
Sadly, they don’t realize that we’d all be better off engaging the issues, rather than being diverted.
But, their defense has a fatal flaw that NS-ers never seem to grasp: It proves nothing. It also raises 2 questions (at least): Should we also view the Mormon faith (with their massive growth) as being blessed by God? And, is the reverse true: if attendance dips one month, should we see it as a lack of blessing from God?
JT,
If you’re looking for blogs that applaud the ministry of Perry Noble and NewSpring, read Perry Noble’s. There really isn’t anything I can add to his own praise, so I’d look weak and silly in comparison to him.
You wouldn’t want me to look like that, would you?
TommyF: Using NS standards, Jeremiah, with no converts had a very unsuccessful ministry.
@ Tommy F
You are so right. The thousands of us that were saved at NewSpring would be better off burning in hell for eternity. I don’t think the end justifies the means in any situation, but to you guys, the end means NOTHING and the means only deserve ridicule. When someone shares their testimony, they’re attempting to show you that “the end” (their salvation) is personal and meaningful to them. Wouldn’t you feel defensive if you felt something very important to you (like, let’s say.. where you’re going to spend eternity) was being attacked?
You’re looking for “truth, doctrine, correct teaching”? And you’re getting that HERE? Making judgments on someone’s character based on a tweet is getting you closer to the truth of the gospel? Really?
(I know, I know JDuncan: “I never said Perry Noble’s childish, corrupt heart would overtake his bad rules and cause him to fall. I simply stated that, based on my interpretation of his tweets, that he has a childish heart. I also judged that he has bad rules. If one has a childish heart, it will always overtake bad rules, but I never said that thing you said I said. Can’t you read?” Honestly, if I could doubt your sincerity, I would say this blog is a “Devil’s Advocate” teaching tool because the word play is so outrageous.)
Also, I’d really love to know where this magical, perfect church is that preaches the 100% correct interpretation in the 100% correct way. Is it the church of James Duncan?
This blog is incredibly divisive. It seems like you guys see huge divisions based on little things (@ Sara), and I don’t see how that is serving you well.
JDunc,
No, I don’t expect you to sing Noble’s praises on your blog. I think you’ve made it clear that that is not your ambition.
But Albert claimed that you do not want to “diminish the incredible work of NS. I would dare say that they would even applaud the efforts of the church.”
He has since clarified that if I followed closely (which I do), or knew you personally (which I don’t), then I’d see your applause for the ministry of NewSpring.
Do you agree with Albert’s claim about your applause for NewSpring?
Before JDuncan responds, let me say that I in no way, shape, or form speak for him. I simple said what I thought and believed to be true….which could be false.
JT, fair question.
I applauded the fact that they gave houses to single moms, though I did not applaud the way that they did it.
I think you can also find nice words about the media ministry of NewSpring and their high level of professionalism.
I’ve also said nice things about various unnamed member/ministers or volunteers at NewSpring, many of whom I have observed to have a passionate heart for Christ and are folks whom I count as my friends.
There are a few specific instances of praise, though I’d say that on the whole this is not a blog you’d turn to if you were looking for applause.
I hope I do not diminish the work of the church, though, if we’re being serious, that work should really be considered the work of the Holy Spirit. We go through this every other week or so when someone new comes in and offers their personal testimony as proof that NS and PN are wonderful. I and no one who has not been faking it have never discounted, doubted or diminished those stories.
What I do try to diminish are the weak or false arguments, and the flawed practices that come from them, that I see PN and others making.
Thanks for the reply. I couldn’t agree more with your statement that the work is really that of the Holy Spirit.
Duncan
I was reading through the sermon on the mount and noticed something interesting Jesus said
Matthew 5:16
“In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.”
I think that may be why they gave houses away the way they did, and then sang praises to God after each house was given away.