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	<title>Comments on: What&#8217;s wrong with Christians?</title>
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		<title>By: James Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5915</link>
		<dc:creator>James Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:47:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5915</guid>
		<description>OK Ben, what is out of context? What was its proper context?

What have we taken literally that was supposed to be figurative?

Use your decoder ring and tell us what was really said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK Ben, what is out of context? What was its proper context?</p>
<p>What have we taken literally that was supposed to be figurative?</p>
<p>Use your decoder ring and tell us what was really said.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5914</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:42:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5914</guid>
		<description>TB, you must be new to this site.  Let me explain how it works so you will know for next time.  

When we want to quote someone but we can&#039;t figure out a way to be critical of the quote, we &quot;paraphrase&quot; so that we can make the quote fit our argument.

When we can&#039;t find anything wrong with a sermon we like to take a small video clip so that we can take what is said out of context.

And when we are really grasping at straws we just take everything literally.  Those are the easiest to attack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TB, you must be new to this site.  Let me explain how it works so you will know for next time.  </p>
<p>When we want to quote someone but we can&#8217;t figure out a way to be critical of the quote, we &#8220;paraphrase&#8221; so that we can make the quote fit our argument.</p>
<p>When we can&#8217;t find anything wrong with a sermon we like to take a small video clip so that we can take what is said out of context.</p>
<p>And when we are really grasping at straws we just take everything literally.  Those are the easiest to attack.</p>
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		<title>By: TB</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5910</link>
		<dc:creator>TB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:12:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5910</guid>
		<description>Duncan,
The point I was trying to make is that you left out the part of BCoop&#039;s point that theology should make you fall in love with God, as well as his people.  I interpreted your post as to say that he didn&#039;t mention falling in love with God at all.  You do acknowledge that he did say that in his post, correct?  I would be careful when paraphrasing if I have to leave out certain parts of the message to get my point across.  From my perspective it seems like that&#039;s what you did.  If not, my mistake.  I do think that the meaning of your point would have been lost had you included it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duncan,<br />
The point I was trying to make is that you left out the part of BCoop&#8217;s point that theology should make you fall in love with God, as well as his people.  I interpreted your post as to say that he didn&#8217;t mention falling in love with God at all.  You do acknowledge that he did say that in his post, correct?  I would be careful when paraphrasing if I have to leave out certain parts of the message to get my point across.  From my perspective it seems like that&#8217;s what you did.  If not, my mistake.  I do think that the meaning of your point would have been lost had you included it.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5909</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5909</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s true to a point, but our culture has as broadly accepted definition of the word &quot;Christian&quot; which is vastly different than the biblical definition of a Christian.  Mormons, JW&#039;s, and some deists are &quot;Christians,&quot; even though they clearly don&#039;t believe the gospel.  It is useful, IMO, to use a term that more accurately defines, in current usage, a born-again believer/follower of Christ/Christian/follower of The Way/disciple.  That&#039;s why I prefer the term &quot;believer,&quot; because it&#039;s:  1. used in the bible; 2. accurately describes how someone is born again; and, 3.  Doesn&#039;t sound as desperate to be &quot;relevant&quot; as &quot;Christ-follower.&quot;

It&#039;s just a preference, though.  I&#039;m not offended when someone calls me a Christian, and I &lt;i&gt;am&lt;/i&gt; a &quot;Christ-follower,&quot; as well.  I still think it&#039;s helpful in some contexts to differentiate believing Christians from social/in-name-only/nominal &quot;Christians&quot; who don&#039;t believe the gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s true to a point, but our culture has as broadly accepted definition of the word &#8220;Christian&#8221; which is vastly different than the biblical definition of a Christian.  Mormons, JW&#8217;s, and some deists are &#8220;Christians,&#8221; even though they clearly don&#8217;t believe the gospel.  It is useful, IMO, to use a term that more accurately defines, in current usage, a born-again believer/follower of Christ/Christian/follower of The Way/disciple.  That&#8217;s why I prefer the term &#8220;believer,&#8221; because it&#8217;s:  1. used in the bible; 2. accurately describes how someone is born again; and, 3.  Doesn&#8217;t sound as desperate to be &#8220;relevant&#8221; as &#8220;Christ-follower.&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just a preference, though.  I&#8217;m not offended when someone calls me a Christian, and I <i>am</i> a &#8220;Christ-follower,&#8221; as well.  I still think it&#8217;s helpful in some contexts to differentiate believing Christians from social/in-name-only/nominal &#8220;Christians&#8221; who don&#8217;t believe the gospel.</p>
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		<title>By: James Downing</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5908</link>
		<dc:creator>James Downing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5908</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a silly point. No matter what you refer to Christians as, it only works as long as noone comes along and messes up your definition of the word. Like, if a ton of non-beleivers started calling themselves believers, then that word would no longer be useful. Let&#039;s just stick with the scripture, which would say Christian, believer, follower of Christ, are all valid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a silly point. No matter what you refer to Christians as, it only works as long as noone comes along and messes up your definition of the word. Like, if a ton of non-beleivers started calling themselves believers, then that word would no longer be useful. Let&#8217;s just stick with the scripture, which would say Christian, believer, follower of Christ, are all valid.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5907</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 17:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5907</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think he&#039;s saying don&#039;t use the term &quot;Christian&quot; because it&#039;s offensive, I think he&#039;s saying don&#039;t use it because it&#039;s no longer descriptive.  In other words, only a small percentage of people who claim to be Christians actually are.  Also, the use of the word as an adjective--Christian music; Christian art; Christian bookstore; Christian clothing -- has cheapened the meaning of what a true Christian is.  

Personally, I think that&#039;s a legitimate point.  I just think the word &quot;Christ-follower&quot; sounds contrived and it not really descriptive of born again believers, either.  Personally, I prefer to refer to believers as believers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think he&#8217;s saying don&#8217;t use the term &#8220;Christian&#8221; because it&#8217;s offensive, I think he&#8217;s saying don&#8217;t use it because it&#8217;s no longer descriptive.  In other words, only a small percentage of people who claim to be Christians actually are.  Also, the use of the word as an adjective&#8211;Christian music; Christian art; Christian bookstore; Christian clothing &#8212; has cheapened the meaning of what a true Christian is.  </p>
<p>Personally, I think that&#8217;s a legitimate point.  I just think the word &#8220;Christ-follower&#8221; sounds contrived and it not really descriptive of born again believers, either.  Personally, I prefer to refer to believers as believers.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5906</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:55:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5906</guid>
		<description>if the term &quot;Christian&quot; is so offensive, why don&#039;t we start hating and stop using terms that are even more offensive to the  world...like the cross, God&#039;s wrath, blood, crucified, sin, etc.  Seriously, if Perry is going to reject one aspect of Scripture, why not others?  where does it end?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if the term &#8220;Christian&#8221; is so offensive, why don&#8217;t we start hating and stop using terms that are even more offensive to the  world&#8230;like the cross, God&#8217;s wrath, blood, crucified, sin, etc.  Seriously, if Perry is going to reject one aspect of Scripture, why not others?  where does it end?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5905</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 15:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5905</guid>
		<description>Judas Iscariot was a &quot;Christ-follower,&quot; for what it&#039;s worth.

I hate the term &quot;Christ-follower,&quot; even though it&#039;s really THE popular term now, even among my friends who are actual Christians.  I can appreciate the point that the term Christian is massively overused now and is used to describe people who are not believers in Jesus Christ at all.  I get the point that it&#039;s confusing and inaccurate much of the time.  But I cringe every time I hear the term &quot;Christ-follower&quot; used.

Once and for all:  no one is saved by being a &quot;Christ-follower.&quot;  We are saved by putting our faith in Jesus Christ.  Nothing else.  When people ignore the simplicity of the gospel, they have a hard time explaining what the gospel is and are constantly groping to define what is necessary to be saved.  Lots of people who accuse me of being a proponent of &quot;easy-believism&quot; (guilty, btw) absolutely refuse to state plainly what they believe to be the plan of salvation.  But it always, ALWAYS comes down to some work that must be done by man to be saved.  Usually this is couched as &quot;repenting of sin,&quot; a phrase not found in any literal bible translation, which means some ill-defined standard of &quot;turning from sin,&quot; (which means you can still sin, you just hate it now, but you&#039;d better stop doing the big ones or you didn&#039;t really repent of your sins.)  In real terms, it means you have to stop doing (or maybe be willing to stop doing) the sins that the person sharing the &quot;gospel&quot; has already stopped.  

The updated version of this is the &quot;Christ-follower&quot; requirement for salvation.  I&#039;ve been in church services where people have prayed to &quot;become a Christ follower.&quot;  I&#039;ve heard pastors I respect tell people that being a Christian means you start &quot;following Christ in the best way you know how.&quot;  This type of phrasing about the gospel has become the norm in a lot of church plant sermons I listen to online. 

So if we become a Christian by being a &quot;Christ-follower,&quot; what happens if we stop &quot;following Christ.&quot;  What does it mean to &quot;follow Christ,&quot; anyway?  Is it necessary to believe in the resurrection?  Do we have to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?  People who think they&#039;re saved by being a &quot;Christ-follower&quot; have almost certainly not placed their faith in Jesus Christ; they are trusting in their own ability and will to be a Christ-follower.  This vague (at best) presentation of the gospel is essentially an invitation to trust in a false works &quot;gospel,&quot; which is no gospel at all.

Did I mention I don&#039;t like the term &quot;Christ-follower?&quot;  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judas Iscariot was a &#8220;Christ-follower,&#8221; for what it&#8217;s worth.</p>
<p>I hate the term &#8220;Christ-follower,&#8221; even though it&#8217;s really THE popular term now, even among my friends who are actual Christians.  I can appreciate the point that the term Christian is massively overused now and is used to describe people who are not believers in Jesus Christ at all.  I get the point that it&#8217;s confusing and inaccurate much of the time.  But I cringe every time I hear the term &#8220;Christ-follower&#8221; used.</p>
<p>Once and for all:  no one is saved by being a &#8220;Christ-follower.&#8221;  We are saved by putting our faith in Jesus Christ.  Nothing else.  When people ignore the simplicity of the gospel, they have a hard time explaining what the gospel is and are constantly groping to define what is necessary to be saved.  Lots of people who accuse me of being a proponent of &#8220;easy-believism&#8221; (guilty, btw) absolutely refuse to state plainly what they believe to be the plan of salvation.  But it always, ALWAYS comes down to some work that must be done by man to be saved.  Usually this is couched as &#8220;repenting of sin,&#8221; a phrase not found in any literal bible translation, which means some ill-defined standard of &#8220;turning from sin,&#8221; (which means you can still sin, you just hate it now, but you&#8217;d better stop doing the big ones or you didn&#8217;t really repent of your sins.)  In real terms, it means you have to stop doing (or maybe be willing to stop doing) the sins that the person sharing the &#8220;gospel&#8221; has already stopped.  </p>
<p>The updated version of this is the &#8220;Christ-follower&#8221; requirement for salvation.  I&#8217;ve been in church services where people have prayed to &#8220;become a Christ follower.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve heard pastors I respect tell people that being a Christian means you start &#8220;following Christ in the best way you know how.&#8221;  This type of phrasing about the gospel has become the norm in a lot of church plant sermons I listen to online. </p>
<p>So if we become a Christian by being a &#8220;Christ-follower,&#8221; what happens if we stop &#8220;following Christ.&#8221;  What does it mean to &#8220;follow Christ,&#8221; anyway?  Is it necessary to believe in the resurrection?  Do we have to believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?  People who think they&#8217;re saved by being a &#8220;Christ-follower&#8221; have almost certainly not placed their faith in Jesus Christ; they are trusting in their own ability and will to be a Christ-follower.  This vague (at best) presentation of the gospel is essentially an invitation to trust in a false works &#8220;gospel,&#8221; which is no gospel at all.</p>
<p>Did I mention I don&#8217;t like the term &#8220;Christ-follower?&#8221;  <img src='http://www.pajamapages.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: James Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5904</link>
		<dc:creator>James Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 14:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5904</guid>
		<description>If the owner of this blog will allow me the liberty of quoting myself, here&#039;s part of what I wrote &lt;a href=&quot;?p=847&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;back in April&lt;/a&gt;:


&lt;blockquote&gt;[Christ follower] rejects God’s family. God refers to the church in familial terms. We are all adopted. We are Christ’s bride. We are brothers and sisters. You might not like it, but when Christ saved you, you joined the family. When my wife married me, she married into my parents and siblings as well. Just because she’s embarrassed by my brother (I jest, bro, because I care) was not enough of a reason for her to suggest that we change our last name to McSnickenmeister so no-one could connect the dots between her and the rest of my family. When Jesus chooses you, his family comes with him. It’s a package deal. It’s a good deal.

[Christ follower] rejects grace. Christian denotes a state of being and belief; we are part of Christ’s church. Christ follower denotes a state of action and effort. Being a Christ follower is always a secondary state compared to our status as Christians. I am a Christian because of what Christ did, not anything I did. To be a Christ follower I must do something. In terms of how both terms explain the essential quality of God’s grace in our salvation, Christ follower couldn’t really be more wrong. The consequence of being a Christian is that one follows Christ, but one can never follow Christ before, or without, being a Christian.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the owner of this blog will allow me the liberty of quoting myself, here&#8217;s part of what I wrote <a href="?p=847" rel="nofollow">back in April</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>[Christ follower] rejects God’s family. God refers to the church in familial terms. We are all adopted. We are Christ’s bride. We are brothers and sisters. You might not like it, but when Christ saved you, you joined the family. When my wife married me, she married into my parents and siblings as well. Just because she’s embarrassed by my brother (I jest, bro, because I care) was not enough of a reason for her to suggest that we change our last name to McSnickenmeister so no-one could connect the dots between her and the rest of my family. When Jesus chooses you, his family comes with him. It’s a package deal. It’s a good deal.</p>
<p>[Christ follower] rejects grace. Christian denotes a state of being and belief; we are part of Christ’s church. Christ follower denotes a state of action and effort. Being a Christ follower is always a secondary state compared to our status as Christians. I am a Christian because of what Christ did, not anything I did. To be a Christ follower I must do something. In terms of how both terms explain the essential quality of God’s grace in our salvation, Christ follower couldn’t really be more wrong. The consequence of being a Christian is that one follows Christ, but one can never follow Christ before, or without, being a Christian.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: James Duncan</title>
		<link>http://www.pajamapages.com/whats-wrong-with-christians/comment-page-1/#comment-5903</link>
		<dc:creator>James Duncan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 13:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3320#comment-5903</guid>
		<description>Of course it&#039;s different, TB. I offered a paraphrase to highlight the point that BC was trying to make. It&#039;s also why I linked to his post so you can see it for yourself.

His whole point is that it is idolatrous to know God just for the sake of knowing God. Cooper has an interesting conception of idolatry if worshiping God can become sinful. He&#039;s the one God we can worship without it being idolatry.

Knowing God and serving people are simultaneous and equal pursuits in Cooper&#039;s mind. In Cooper&#039;s formulation, we have faith in order to have works. I would say that we have faith, therefore we have works.

There&#039;s an important difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Of course it&#8217;s different, TB. I offered a paraphrase to highlight the point that BC was trying to make. It&#8217;s also why I linked to his post so you can see it for yourself.</p>
<p>His whole point is that it is idolatrous to know God just for the sake of knowing God. Cooper has an interesting conception of idolatry if worshiping God can become sinful. He&#8217;s the one God we can worship without it being idolatry.</p>
<p>Knowing God and serving people are simultaneous and equal pursuits in Cooper&#8217;s mind. In Cooper&#8217;s formulation, we have faith in order to have works. I would say that we have faith, therefore we have works.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s an important difference.</p>
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