Who is church for?
Posted: June 16th, 2009 | Author: James Duncan | Tags: Church, Evangelism, Worship | 37 Comments »If you were to boil my disagreements with Perry Noble and NewSpring down to a single issue, it would be over the answer to this question.
Here, in order, is how I would answer the question.
- God. As God began to reveal himself to his people, one of his early steps was to create a house for himself. Not only was God to have his own house, but he was very particular about how it was to be built and how people were to act when they visited it. From Deuteronomy 12:4-5:
You shall not act like this toward the LORD your God.
But you shall seek the LORD at the place which the LORD your God will choose from all your tribes, to establish His name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come.
When I built my house a few years ago, I was keenly interested in adapting the plans and monitoring the workers who were constructing it. Large sections of the Old Testament are devoted to God’s detailed instructions on how the tabernacle and, later, the temple were to be designed and outfitted. God designed his house so that he would enjoy inhabiting it. It had to be just so before he would move in. From Exodus 40:34, after Moses had completed the tabernacle:
Then the cloud covered the Tent of Meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. Moses could not enter the Tent of Meeting because the cloud had settled upon it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
If you visited my home, I would expect you to act in accordance with the customs and rules in my home, and if I visited yours, one of the things I would be trying to do is to figure out your rules. Who sits in what chairs at the dinner table, for example. In an analogous way, God expects visitors to his house to act in accordance with his rules. Deuteronomy 12:8:
You shall not do at all what we are doing here today, every man doing whatever is right in his own eyes.
Outsiders and unbelievers especially were not be be a standard for behavior in God’s house. Look at Deuteronomy 12:30-31.
Beware that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods, that I also may do likewise?’
You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods.
God also expects his own people to come near with respect. Leviticus 22:2 (and many others):
Tell Aaron and his sons to be careful with the holy gifts of the sons of Israel, which they dedicate to Me, so as not to profane My holy name; I am the LORD.
Ecclesiastes 5:1-2 also reminds us that church is not primarily for us, and that that understanding should affect our behavior:
Guard your steps as you go to the house of God and draw near to listen rather than to offer the sacrifice of fools; for they do not know they are doing evil.
Do not be hasty in word or impulsive in thought to bring up a matter in the presence of God For God is in heaven and you are on the earth; therefore let your words be few.
- Believers. By his grace, God opened his house to his family to join him and enjoy him. The Psalms often refer to assemblies of believers who gather to worship God. Psalm 149:1:
Sing to the Lord a new song, his praise in the assembly of the saints.
It’s interesting to note that the label of Christian was given to describe believers who gathered in church. From Acts 11:25-26:
And he left for Tarsus to look for Saul; and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch And for an entire year they met with the church and taught considerable numbers; and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.
Christians and church are inseparable. Christians were defined in part by their attendance in church.
Church is also necessary for preserving the saints in their faith. Note the progression from preaching to discipleship to church government in this passage from Acts 14:21-23.
After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch, strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”
When they had appointed elders for them in every church, having prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed.
Paul tells Timothy that proper behavior is expected in church, which is to be so honored because it is essential for understanding truth.
You will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)
The church is given to us as a venue to worship God, and as his venue to teach, bless and discipline us.
- Unbelievers. Although church is not created for unbelievers, it does not exclude them. Paul instructs the church on the proper use of tongues by telling them to consider whether unbelievers will be there. From 1 Corinthians 14:22-25:
So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
Although this verse is sometimes misused to justify turning churches into virtual pagan temples, note that Paul assumes that unbelievers are not a regular part of church. The repeated use of the word if shows that church is not lacking anything if they are not in attendance, but neither should they be excluded.
Paul also assumes that if an unbeliever is attending church, they are quite likely about to be saved and begin to worship God. These are not seekers Paul is talking about; they are people ready to be turned inside out by God.
The reason they’re in church is probably because God has drawn them there. We know that they’re not there of their own volition to seek God, as Romans 3:11 makes clear.
There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
The reason this matters is because our understanding of the purpose of church will affect the way we behave in it and how proper our worship is when we’re in it.
(Tomorrow we’ll look at what Perry Noble and his friends believe about this question and how it affects their worship.)
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Excellent post.
The only point I’ll add is the difference between a church service, and the Church. The first is an activity that has some specific guidelines in scripture. The second is the body of all believers throughout the world. That distinction needs to be made, I think, before we start discussing what God demands of the church/Church.
Good point, JT. For the purposes of this discussion, I’m talking about the church service that is designed to occur when believers gather in a common physical space.
JD, Do really think that God wants everyone to worship, act and be just like you? Why spend so much time trying to tear down a single person and church? Why not use your time to try and do something proactive for the Kingdom of Christ? (By the way…Jesus destroyed the temple! That’s not a very good example.)
You are dead on, Duncan, and this is a big part of the mess that church is in today. I don’t know when Sunday morning became THE appointed time for evangelism, but Noble is a logical extension of that mindset. When unbelievers are the focus of your “worship” service, you will do what is neccesary to insure that they will attend. At some point, what you have is so pointed towards the unbeliever that it can no longer be called the gospel. A few years ago, I was planning an event that was supposed to be a massive outreach /evangelism type thing. It seemed that anything that was a clear presentation of the Gospel, or clearly focusing on God was shot down because that wouldn’t be what sinners wanted. I made the suggestion that we should book Snoop Dogg. 10,000 sinners show up at every one of his concerts.
It is obvious that the focus of a worship service should be solely on the One who is being worshipped. We should not ask the question, “what will lost people enjoy?”. We should instead ask, “What would Christ enjoy?”.
Next on the list would be the equipping of the saints. Equipping for what? For the real work of ministry outside the walls of the church.
Ryan,
Where do you get the idea that I want people to worship like me? The whole point of this post is that God wants people to worship exactly like he wants them to worship. It’s not a matter of personal discretion.
What, exactly, do you disagree with here?
BTW, Jesus did not destroy the temple or the church.
Duncan
Technically, he did not destroy the temple but, the Romans did. But God said it wouold happen and he allowed it to happen, so yes, in a way, he did. Since it was an event that was predicted to happen, God knkew it would happen and had to happen to fulfill the scriptures, so I would say that it is fair to say He destroyed the temple.
And that was that? What did he replace the building with?
There is a very simple answer to all of this nonsense.
It is said so clearly in the bible by the one and only JESUS CHRIST! Mat 7:1-5 Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use to judge others , it will measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speak in your friends eye when you have a log in your own? How can you say let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye when you cant see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye, then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friends eye.
Well, we have the church of today that replaced the temple. But, the temple was still destroyed. Also, I just noticed you added something to Ryan’s post, he said
“By the way…Jesus destroyed the temple! That’s not a very good example”
You said
“BTW, Jesus did not destroy the temple or the church”
I see a problem with you adding something to that, He said nothing about Jesus destroying the church, just the temple, and since the temple is gone, as it was predicted to be destroyed (that was one of the prophesy’s that had to take place to show us that Jesus was who he said he was) he was correct. The trinity, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, are all God, so, technically, yes, Jesus allowed the temple to be destroyed since it had to happen to fulfill scripture
Also, I too am wondering what exactly Ryans arguement was or what he was disagreeing with. I think the post is overall good and agree with it.
Cowning –
You said, “We should not ask the question, “what will lost people enjoy?”. We should instead ask, “What would Christ enjoy?”.”
Christ proved through his actions that the thing He enjoys most is when lost people get saved.
I understand the point that (I’m assuming) Duncan will be making in his follow-up post tomorrow: that church services are for glorifying God and, to a lesser extent, for edifying believers. However, I’d argue that God is more glorified when His work of salvation is seen by all, as unbelievers repent and believe in Him. Seriously, which do you think God prefers: When we fulfill the great commission in our church services; or when we sing Him a song and take good notes on the sermon? God clearly likes both options, but I tend to think he prefers the former to the latter.
In my younger years, a close friend of mine started attending Saddleback church. I always gave him a hard time for attending a “seeker-church”. I accused him of being a milk-drinker (and thereby implying that I ate meat at my church). I accused his church of not discipling him, and of failing to prepare him to live a Christian life. He said, “There’s nothing that edifies me more than to see God save people from hell every single week.”
Oops. I meant “Downing”. My apologies.
@Ryan Norris,
Ryan, I think JDuncan is doing something proactive for the Kingdom of Christ. We are to engage God with all heart, mind, soul and strength. This is “mind” stuff and I hope it helps you sharpen your ideas and thoughts as you live in the Kingdom of Christ.
In this particular thread, JDuncan lays out some very well thought out, well articulated, precise and powerful ideas, the most powerful being that we should be about the task of wondering what God wants of us in worship instead of being overly concerned (or concerned at all) with “what the people want”.
If wondering what God wants or expects of us in worship is not vital to know, I don’t know what is. From your comment, I notice that you said nothing in support of, or in dispute with, any of JDuncans ideas in his post. It appears you aren’t thinking about this vital issue and how it should impact you.
Regarding the temple, was I asleep when someone decided to axe the old testament from the christian bible. Your point about the temple being destroyed is what exactly? And how does it relate to the point of God expectations of us when we gather to worship?
Duncan,
I wish you would go start a church of your own. Right now there’s nothing good enough in church land for the rest of us mortals to choose from. If you planted a church, it would be perfect!
There is a very simple answer to all of this nonsense.
It is said so clearly in the bible by the one and only JESUS CHRIST! Matthew 7:1-5 Stop judging others, and you will not be judged. For others will treat you as you treat them. Whatever measure you use to judge others , it will measure how you are judged. And why worry about a speak in your friends eye when you have a log in your own? How can you say let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye when you cant see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye, then perhaps you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friends eye.
Mr. Duncan If you would spend as much time praying and focosing on God as you do putting down NS and Perry Noble I think you would find what you are doing is wrong. Let those who have never sinned cast the first stone. All have sinned and fall short of the kingdom of God!
JT – So your answer is the church is for lost people? If the church is defined as the body of believers, how can it be for lost people? The church is for worshiping God. God has to draw unbelievers to himself. Any marketing, relevance, cool gimmick that we come up with, is only going to create false converts. I’m all for people coming to church and getting saved, I just want to make sure there is a clear presentation of the Gospel. I’ve been involved in Seeker type churches for the last 15 years… including ones we discuss right here on this blog. A clear presentation of the Gospel is a rare occurence at these churches. Very rare. So what are gospel are these people being saved by?
Also would like to point out that these churches do everything posiible to inflate thei salvation numbers. Most of their salvations come from someone checking a box on a card. That’s it. How much more non-comittal could you be?
If we are relying on cool music, smooth graphics, and entertaining speakers to “save” people, what happens 5 years from now when these methods are no longer relevant? Is the Gospel not enough?
HEy Audra – How much time has Duncan spent praying and focusing on God this week? You don’t know? Well, didn’t you just make a judgement against a brother? See, it cuts both ways.
@JT,
You said, “Seriously, which do you think God prefers: When we fulfill the great commission in our church services; or when we sing Him a song and take good notes on the sermon?
The great commission refers to making disciples, not church members and not converts. Discipling is a life long effort in which the church has a vital role. I get real concerned with the emphasis on “getting saved” as if accepting Jesus as your sin management strategy is the be all, end all. Convicting someone of sin and having them agree in a worship service is not the same as making a disciple. This suggests the great commission is fulfilled at precisely the point in time someone accepts Christ. I don’t agree. It’s just the start.
JD – I do agree with most of what you wrote. I guess that I failed to make an argument for what I disagreed with. The main thing that I disagree with in this post is that the church is in place lastly for the non believers. I believe that Christ established His ministry and His church to reach non believers. I agree God is the main reason for the church. I also agree that the church is a place for believers to gather and worship. I also think that it is a place that people (non believers) can come to Christ. I don’t know that the believers and non believers can be ranked.
However, my main argument is that your blog makes me wonder what your motive is? Is it your motive to point Christians in the right direction where you think they have gone astray, or is it your motive to put a bulls eye on one church and try judge them and dissect everything that they do and say? I know what your answer will be, but I still wonder.
Ryan, of course they can be ranked. Paul’s instructions in Corinthians assumed that nonbelievers would not always be in church. He was teaching the believers how to worship in church. Nonbelievers cannot worship God, so a “church” of nonbelievers could not be church because it could not fulfill its primary purpose.
Paul says that tongues are for unbelievers and prophecy is for believers. What kind of balance did Paul want between the two in church? 1 Corinthians 14:19:
One word for nonbelievers for every 2,000 for believers. I’d say that’s a pretty obvious ranking.
Very good points JD.
We Christians are required to point out these errors coming from NewSpring Church. Perry Noble’s attempt to change the church into a body designed around nonbelievers needs to be examined by the scriptures. Mr. Duncan has done a very good job out lining God’s requirements for His church. I just wish the NewSpringers would heed the Scriptures in context and urge Perry Noble to change.
Romans 16:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.
Mr. Duncan’s critiques of NewSpring and Perry Noble are just and done in a godly manner. Foe this reason I give thanks to him for exposing the problems with NewSpring and Perry Noble.
Ephesians 2:1-5
Colossians 2:20-23
Titus 2:7-12
James 4:4
1 Peter 2:11
1 John 2:15-17
In Christ,
David J
Here’s where I come from on this whole debate…I think that some great points have been raised on both sides of the aisle here. NewSpring has a definite emphasis on attracting non-believers to church, but I don’t think that means that they are making it a church for non-believers. To me as a believer, I think they have a overall plan that involves traditional methods of church along with the stunts like catchy sermon series/secular music. On their own, these stunts make NewSpring appear to be a church for non-believers, but as someone who has attended NewSpring for the better part of five years now, they do things very much like any other kind of church I have attended(of course that could be a commentary on the other churches I have attended lol). Now I’m sure there is a verse that says thou shalt not use stunts in church in someone’s Bible, but I have not seen it.
One point addressed awhile back was why does NewSpring go out of its way to promote the playing AC/DC and not their regular worship songs. I think NewSpring operates with definite business-like principles. From personal experience working at a restaurant, you don’t always advertise the item that has always been a part of the menu and sells well–you promote the new item. That new item is the different music or catchy sermon. Yet, the new item does not stand on its own. Some people will come to the restaurant because of that new item, but once you get the customer coming–you introduce the other menu items to them. Before long, they come to your restaurant all the time for different items. NewSpring hooks the non-believer in a sense with the new item, but they also provide the other traditional items that other churches have. That’s how I understand atleast, but would welcome any thoughts on the model. Just thinking out loud…probably not a fool-proof explanation at all but it’s my attempt.
B – That’s probably an accurate description – the marketing, gimmicks, stunts, etc. Forgive me, but that just sounds horrible. Why does NS feel they need to dress up the gospel…or as you are saying, present something totally different than the gospel as a hook? Isn’t that slightly dishonest? If you look at Peter’s sermon in Acts 4, He didn’t mix his words in the least. He presented the brutal truth, and I think it says 5,000 were added to their number that day. He didn’t try to be accepted by culture, he confronted it head on…completely opposed it, in fact. How is it that none of the apostels were adored by there culture (they were all killed), but modern pastors think that they must be cool to be successful in ministry?
I don’t think they dress it up as much as they find a unique way to broadcast the message to those who don’t speak church. I don’t think they are as concerned with coolness as with finding ways to get the Word out to those who don’t know Christ. It is very much a language issue. We as Christians speak a different lingo that does not always translate in our current culture. Don’t get me wrong, the way NewSpring does it is not the only way to reach unbeliever, but it is a way…and it is effective. The question often addressed here is if it is right. That is the fault line we are on here. I don’t see anything wrong with it, but I can understand why others find fault.
Addressing the Biblical figures ministry styles, Peter did present the brutal truth. Jesus did too obviously, but he also had fellowship among the outcasts of society. He didn’t have them come to him always. He, in many instances, went out of his way to show that these people were loved by God also. I think that is the line of thinking that NewSpring follows. These people that listen to AC/DC are loved by God also. These people that have money/things as their idol are loved by God and need to hear the Gospel.
Hey James,
So take out the part I said about Mr. duncan. The rest is scripture. Now tell me how that is wrong!!!!
@JamesDowning –
You said, “Any marketing, relevance, cool gimmick that we come up with, is only going to create false converts.”
The problem with that statement is that, while it sounds true on the surface, it is quickly breaks down when you get into the specifics.
What qualifies as “marketing”, “relevance”, or “cool gimmicks”?
One could argue that all of the following fall into one of your categories:
-advertising your services in the newspaper
-hosting an Easter egg hunt at church
-putting on a Christmas pageant with the children dressed up as sheep and the choir sitting in one of those singing Christmas trees
-using a gigantic pipe organ in the church’s worship
-having the pastor dress up in a suit and tie on Sundays
-the ping-pong table in the church basement for the teenagers
-giving first time visitors a copy of the message (or even a follow-up call or visit)
I could go on and on. The point is that God does not expect us to sit around and say, “Well, God will draw in the ones whom he wishes to save, so we don’t have to do anything to find or reach the lost.” If it were otherwise, I don’t think He would have bothered to give us the Great Commission.
And for the record, I think all of the things I listed above are great for churches. OK, maybe not the singing Christmas tree.
I do, however, love a great gigantic pipe organ in church. Really, that’s about as gimmicky as you can get. And it’s incredible.
Jt – yes, most of those things you listed are pretty worthless. Why not just follow a biblical pattern for worship, live out the great commission out in the real world, and got to the movies for entertainment?
Audra – I love those scritpures. I guess you missed the irony in that you went against those scriptures in the very same post.
Dana/Audra,
Who or what do you think is being judged here?
James I will not argue with you! You just contradict your self. Go back and count how many times you have judged in the past blog post. My comments are to Mr. Duncan not you! I apoligized for what I said can you go back and apologize for every judgement you have made?
Audra, what about the Bereans? In Acts, Paul commended them for testing everything he said against Scripture. Should we not do the same with Noble an all? What about where Paul tells us to test each spirit, and keep what is good. Doesn’t that require a judgement against to tell what is bad? What about Jesus warning us against future false prophets in Matthew 28? How we will know these false prophets if we don’t judge what they say?
Your admonition to sit back and lot God handle it, is not wise or biblical.
James the bible says be wise and judge for yourself. If the spirt is in you then you know what is right and wrong because he tells you so in your heart. And yes I belive that I would know the anti christ because jesus will tell me. I think the only ones who will not know are the ones who Jesus is not there lord and savior. And I also know that as long as I have been going to NS if it was not a place of God and PN was not called to preach then Jesus would have told me to find another church.And yes jesus does speak to me about many things, But my faith has only Grew stronger by going to NS. And No i do not think that for one second That christains should sit back and let God handle it, that is why he gives us the tools we need to be able to judge for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. And I can’t tell you how many times PN has said that in church. And how are you (testing) PN and not judging him. The bible say to watch and listen and to judge according to our own heart! It certainly does not say to Judge others. And you can not tell me that you are not judging PN and NS. Now can you?
Mr. duncan you asked me a question and I responded. Dont I deserve a response. If not I am assuming that you agree with me.
Don’t worry, you’ll get a response.
In the meantime, I think the others have responded to you quite well.
So this is why you hate Perry and Newspring? Gosh, I’m so relieved. I was about to think you actually had a good reason for all of this. I am so glad to know that this is about a building and customs. You can have the building and the customs and all the other stuff. I’ll take Jesus.
Since noone called me out on it…my Matthew 28 reference was wrong. Haha Woops. Should have been Matthew 7.
Audra, honestly, you speak in circles to the point that it is hard to even respond. I think at the end of your last post you asked if I had judged Perry Noble and Newspring. Yes, I have judged them against scripture and will continue to do so. Would you prefer I throw my bible away?
Ben, perhaps you should read the post before commenting? Did he say he hated Noble? Did he even mention a building or customs?
Ben:
You wrote: “You can have the building and the customs and all the other stuff. I’ll take Jesus.”
The irony here is sweet. I think you’d better check with NS first. Their buildings are very important to them. Like multi-million $ important.
If they’d focus on Jesus and not buildings and customs, this blog wouldn’t exist.